38 DA TB with “ Factory Solid Silver Grips”!!

[BMur]

I'm conducting a lot of research since the Quarantine. I don't know why this came up on my 41 House Pistol survey?

I've never seen cut away solid Silver Factory Grips so just thought I'd share with the forum.

Murph

 

[handejector]

Why do you say "solid" silver? The letter says silver trimmed, which matches the appearance in the pic.

And, no, I've never seen a pair!

 

[BMur]

Solid Silver?

I suppose you can read the letter and see the grips several ways? Silver trimmed simply means "Solid Silver that has been trimmed" to me? I also believe that the frame is Silver plated although the letter only mentions "Plated" finish. Probably vague in the records.

I don't think the factory was trying to cut any corners on this one. It was sent to Paris so might have been on display at one of the World Fairs etc. I believe there was a Paris Exhibition around that time frame and several Smith & Wesson embellished guns were sent to Paris in 1889. Perhaps the tiffany Schofield was also a participant? In fact if I owned this Tiffany Schofield I would research that event and see if the French newspapers listed the guns on display. When I researched the Smith & Wesson extremely rare .41rf revolver? It was clearly listed in the 1867 Exhibition in France along with other guns sent for that event from the factory heavily embellished.

I remember reading about the later event but I'm focused on survey research right now so a simple historical timeline search would probably turn up the event since we know the date the gun was shipped via the factory letter.

The engraving looks like a more detailed "Bank Note" engraving that is not like the typical Factory Contract engraving from one of the Young family members. The Style is the same but much more detailed. So a lot more effort and time to engrave this one.

If the grips are a brass base metal with Silver plate? The Silver plate would have worn off like a lot of the Plated finish has on the frame. The Grips and engraving on same appear worn to me, if it was plated over Brass, Iron, or some other base metal? The Silver color would have gone away. Or appear uneven. The color looks even and strong to me so I'm betting they are Solid Silver over a gutta percha core. Which give it that two tone that looks pretty awesome to me.

Solid Silver items during that period is not at all unusual. I have a cannon barrel single shot .36 cal derringer with Solid Silver engraved grips. Heck even the coins were high percentage Silver in those days.

What is really impressive to me personally is not only are the grips very custom? but to mold those grips from Solid Silver is nothing like molding typical Hard Rubber black grips. Yet the Logo is identical at the top of the grips so they must have used a sand mold? I don't know but it wasn't easy since they are placed and fitted over a dark Gutta Percha base. Very impressive result, very unique, and I'm sure, very expensive.


Murph

 

[Pisgah]

I read "silver trimmed" as "silver decorated" -- which those appear to be. Unusual, for sure!

 

[orbruce]

This gun was on the market about 5-6 years ago. I saw the gun at the Las Vegas Antique Arms show. It was in a couple of auctions (Rock Island ?) but did not sell. The last time I saw it for sale it had a lot of questionable "documentation" trying to make it out as a Tiffany done gun. It's a interesting gun due to the grips, but not in the price range of a genuine Tiffany done gun.

B. Mower

 

[iby]

I'm conducting a lot of research since the Quarantine. I don't know why this came up on my 41 House Pistol survey?

I've never seen cut away solid Silver Factory Grips so just thought I'd share with the forum.

Murph

Please post about your hOUSE pISTOL SURVEY

 

[BMur]

House Pistol

iby,
Please send me a PM. The House Pistol is not Smith & Wesson related. My survey actually is in part but only on a timeline basis related to the ultra rare 41 rim fire Smith & Wesson 4 shot Revolver.

Murph

 

[JayFramer]

Am I nuts for thinking that looks like silver plating that has flaked off quite a bit? Or is it supposed to look like the broadside of 'Ol Bessie?

 

[mrcvs]

This gun was on the market about 5-6 years ago. I saw the gun at the Las Vegas Antique Arms show. It was in a couple of auctions (Rock Island ?) but did not sell. The last time I saw it for sale it had a lot of questionable "documentation" trying to make it out as a Tiffany done gun. It's a interesting gun due to the grips, but not in the price range of a genuine Tiffany done gun.

B. Mower

What kind of money are we talking? For example, what did RIA give as a pre auction estimate, what was the opening bid that was not attained, other asking prices, etc.?

 

[mrcvs]

Am I nuts for thinking that looks like silver plating that has flaked off quite a bit? Or is it supposed to look like the broadside of 'Ol Bessie?

I think the "silver trimmed grips" describes the current appearance was as manufactured (e.g., intentional), and it is not particularly attractive and does resemble a Holstein cow.

 

[BMur]

Auction post

It does kinda look like the side of a Berkeley Farms Heifer.

Photos are from:
December 5, 2015
Estimated between $14,000- $22,500
NO bids
Shipped to Paris September 10,1889

The World Exhibition was in Paris between May and October 1889(see photos) so this gun caught the tail end of that World Event and was likely a special order from a client that attended the Exhibition. Nothing today comes close to the World Fairs of yesterday? My Grandmother attended the Worlds Fair in San Francisco in 1915 and I remember as a kid her talking about it like being in Rome in its day. I have a photo or two of her being on a boat on her way to the fair. Almost like living in a dream. Her words. It must have been quite an experience.

They tore down all the original Roman like structures from that 1915 Fair. All but one remains. The Exploratorium....
Right now they are housing the "Homeless" in that structure. I swear, these times really SUCK!

Murph

 

[orbruce]

What kind of money are we talking? For example, what did RIA give as a pre auction estimate, what was the opening bid that was not attained, other asking prices, etc.?

As Murphy said the estimate was $14,000 - $22,000. They were trying to represent it as a Tiffany done gun and a World Exhibition gun. It is neither of those. Having seen and handle it in person I thought the grips were well done and attractive, they really "made" the gun. Overall a nice gun but just not worth anywhere near what they estimated.

B. Mower

 

[JayFramer]

Does Tiffany even still contract customs?

 

[model3sw]

Does Tiffany even still contract customs?

Good question. Just as a matter of thought, from a World Class jeweler, I'm thinking they would do just about ANYTHING (as far as legitimate upgrades, custom jobs and any eccentricity a mind could crate, for the right price and / or the right customer.

 

[model3sw]

As Murphy said the estimate was $14,000 - $22,000. They were trying to represent it as a Tiffany done gun and a World Exhibition gun. It is neither of those. Having seen and handle it in person I thought the grips were well done and attractive, they really "made" the gun. Overall a nice gun but just not worth anywhere near what they estimated.

B. Mower

Rock Island represent it as a TIFFANY embellished gun?

From other recent threads it seems Rock Island had offered "a few" over those past years, as TIFFANY connected guns of at which at least SOME are questionably to doubtfully, anything near correct with the blue skies build up on description that had either little or no valid data suggesting that it be taken as proof, when ... at best ... appears to suggest scantily disguised provenance.

Something of such World Famous Quality and family name should be examined by legitimate, licensed, insured and BONDED experts that are financially responsible if identification and authenticity is incorrect or itme is improperly described.

If, in fact, the item had been advertised in a robust fashion to appear as though it may have been intentional deceit, it could have a different, legal, ramification. e.g. auction house as expert has fiduciary responsibility to made sure, beyond reasonable doubt, that the item has been described properly. Buyer has detrimental reliance on data provided to be true and factual.

 

[BMur]

Original Auction Discription

This is a copy of the Unedited original RIA 2015 Auction Description.

Murph

 

[wordsmith]

Here's the link to that RIA auction, the Tiffany notation refers to 'style' and the reference to the Paris Expo is that the gun 'may' have been ordered for exhibition there, or possibly by a client who saw the various 'fancy' (it was the company's custom to display engraved and embellished guns at ALL major exhibitions) S&W's on display. Given that it was shipped to Paris in the time of the Expo either scenario would have been entirely possible.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/66/1246/smith-wesson-38-da-revolver-38-sw

The gun did not meet reserve at RIA or in either of the two previous sales it was in, at other auction houses now out of business, both of which had the pre-sale estimates far higher. Having handled it more than a few times I can confirm the finish is nickel, as noted in the RIA listing, not silver. The factory engraving is either Gustave or Oscar Young. The grips are artistically fabulous - the gun itself is good, not great.

David

As Murphy said the estimate was $14,000 - $22,000. They were trying to represent it as a Tiffany done gun and a World Exhibition gun. It is neither of those. Having seen and handle it in person I thought the grips were well done and attractive, they really "made" the gun. Overall a nice gun but just not worth anywhere near what they estimated.

B. Mower

 

[mmaher94087]

Again, beware of the wording: "Factory Engraved Smith & Wesson .38 Double Action Revolver with Documented Special Silver Trimmed Tiffany Style Grip , Factory Letter, and Research Shipped to Paris for or During the Exposition Universelle of 1889".

 

[mrcvs]

Ouch! With a pre auction estimate at that time of $14000 to $22000, before the recent decline in the valuation of antique Smith & Wesson revolvers, often the opening bid is half of the low end pre auction estimate. Hard to believe this one couldn't crack $7000!?!? Perhaps there are condition issues not readily apparent? Where is this revolver now and are detailed colour photographs available?

 

[orbruce]

I can't remember which auction, but this gun was in it with a lot of "documentation" written by Larry Wilson trying to show a link between this gun and other Tiffany guns.

B. Mower