Short-barreled rifle question

[keith44spl]

It's a web of deceit by the atf.........

AR lowers purchased as a rifle are rifles

AR lowers purchased as a pistol are pistols

AR multi-caliber lowers can be both

It's a tangled mess created by a bureaucracy without legislative power.

.
** Don't drink and drive with yer mis-matched gun parts...

 

[Rastoff]

Seem to recall........ if you have a SBR/ pistol upper you'd better also have/own a pistol lower (which is the serial #ed "firearm")........ or there is implied intent that you plan to build a unregistered SBR.

Implied intent means nothing if there's no proof of wrong doing. As bad as things are, the rule of law in this country is still innocent until proven guilty.

Having said that, there is such a thing as constructive possession. However, for that to be a problem, it must be written into the law in your state. In CA the law is written in such a way that if the upper and lower are separated, it is no longer an assault rifle even if both parts are in your possession.

Without knowing in which state you reside, we cannot answer you further.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Implied intent means nothing if there's no proof of wrong doing. As bad as things are, the rule of law in this country is still innocent until proven guilty.

Having said that, there is such a thing as constructive possession. However, for that to be a problem, it must be written into the law in your state. In CA the law is written in such a way that if the upper and lower are separated, it is no longer an assault rifle even if both parts are in your possession.

Without knowing in which state you reside, we cannot answer you further.

Constructive possession of an unregistered SBR is what I meant.... SBR's Federally and State regulated.

Again not my area of expertise.... but as I stated it was something I recall reading. Argument was (again IIRC) if you don't have a proper lower aka registered SBR (or AR pistol) then the only use for that short barreled upper is to build a unregistered SBR. So the argument went that the only reason one purchased the SB upper is because they did so with the intent to build a unregistered SBR.

Constructive possession + implied intent.

Guess my point is ...... as pointed out by a Firearms Lawyer during a CLE course....... you don't want to spend years of your life and your savings as the defendant in a case trying to clarify the law.

As an aside I believe the piece predated the current pistol w/ "stabilizer" craze. So if you have a pistol lower guess you could justify several short barrel uppers ..... 7.5 to 11 inches.

 

[dave1918a2]

Federal law is one aspect. State law is another. You do not identify which state You are in, so most answers are moot.

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...I've read that if you possess all the parts to make an illegal weapon...

...the ATF considers you to be in possession of that weapon...

...I believe that's what set off the conflagration at Waco...

 

[Rastoff]

Constructive possession of an unregistered SBR is what I meant.... SBR's Federally and State regulated.

Again not my area of expertise.... but as I stated it was something I recall reading. Argument was (again IIRC) if you don't have a proper lower aka registered SBR (or AR pistol) then the only use for that short barreled upper is to build a unregistered SBR. So the argument went that the only reason one purchased the SB upper is because they did so with the intent to build a unregistered SBR.

Constructive possession + implied intent.

Guess my point is ...... as pointed out by a Firearms Lawyer during a CLE course....... you don't want to spend years of your life and your savings as the defendant in a case trying to clarify the law.

As an aside I believe the piece predated the current pistol w/ "stabilizer" craze. So if you have a pistol lower guess you could justify several short barrel uppers ..... 7.5 to 11 inches.

I understand what you're getting at. However, it's not a legal basis for prosecution. Neither constructive possession nor implied intent are legal precedent or probable cause. A person can own a hundred uppers with 7" barrels on them, but until they connect them to a lower, they're not breaking any laws. The simple answer could be, "I was going to get a pistol lower, but don't have one yet." At least that's how it works in my state. Again, innocent until proven guilty.

God help us if they start imprisoning people for what they might do.



Just to be clear, I'm not a fan of either the AR pistol or SBRs. I don't see the value or any real functionality. Therefore, I don't own any. As we can see from this thread, they just create potential legal weirdness. No one, not even the ATF has a grasp of what all the laws are surrounding these tools. So why put yourself in this situation?

Even so, the 2nd Amendment is absolute. Every gun law beyond that is illegal.

 

[ladder13]

........
Even so, the 2nd Amendment is absolute. Every gun law beyond that is illegal.

Hear freakin' hear !

 

[bigggbbruce]

Now to your main topic. If your lower is originally papered as a rifle, and you put a pistol upper on it, you've created an SBR. You better license it or switch it back before someone catches it.

If your lower is originally papered as a Pistol lower, if you put a rifle upper on it, it's perfectly legal except that you now have "converted" that firearm to a rifle. You can't go back and put the pistol upper back on it, otherwise you've created an SBR that requires licensing.

Clear as mud, right?

This is the way I understand it.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I also don't have a use for a SBR or a AR Pistol........ they look cool but I don't see the point without a suppressor.

I don't want to deal with semi-informed law enforcement (this is not a anti-cop statement) about the fine points of gun laws or politically motivated DA's. Their resources are limitless.... look at General Flynn....... don't be a test case.

Conspiracy......... can be a felony..... so don't go bragging to your "buddy" in the bar about your SBR option..... if the SHTF !

As I said I'd remembering something I read that was argued 5+ years ago....

I suppose I'm in Sam Elliott's camp..... in "We were Soldiers"..... if the time come that I need one I'll pick one up.

 

[Valmet]

I also don't have a use for a SBR or a AR Pistol........ they look cool but I don't see the point without a suppressor.

I don't want to deal with semi-informed law enforcement (this is not a anti-cop statement) about the fine points of gun laws or politically motivated DA's. Their resources are limitless.... look at General Flynn....... don't be a test case.

Conspiracy......... can be a felony..... so don't go bragging to your "buddy" in the bar about your SBR option..... if the SHTF !

As I said I'd remembering something I read that was argued 5+ years ago....

I suppose I'm in Sam Elliott's camp..... in "We were Soldiers"..... if the time come that I need one I'll pick one up.

Not really any fine points to discuss with officers or DAs if SBR'd on a Form 1 (assuming you produce the tax stamp for it). Pistol braces, lowers, etc are another story.

 

[ladder13]

Not really any fine points to discuss with officers or DAs if SBR'd on a Form 1 (assuming you produce the tax stamp for it). Pistol braces, lowers, etc are another story.

Keep a copy of the Form 1 tax stamp with the gun. In a range bag, in a car, etc.

 

[Rastoff]

Keep a copy of the Form 1 tax stamp with the gun. In a range bag, in a car, etc.

This is probably wise, but man, I don't want to live where I need to produce papers for everything I own. It should be enough that I say it's legal. Alas, this is not the world we live in and I know, I live in one of the worst states. Fortunately, papers aren't required, yet.

 

[ladder13]

This is probably wise, but man, I don't want to live where I need to produce papers for everything I own. It should be enough that I say it's legal. Alas, this is not the world we live in and I know, I live in one of the worst states. Fortunately, papers aren't required, yet.

Agreed, but it is what it is. I also have an AR pistol. I carry the original papers showing it is a pistol with that one too, less they think I "manufactured" an SBR.

 

[old tanker]

The practical fact of the matter 'their" lawyer works for "free." Your does not. All they have to do to ruin you is persecute until you run out of money.

 

[ladder13]

The practical fact of the matter 'their" lawyer works for "free." Your does not. All they have to do to ruin you is persecute until you run out of money.

Yes, we recently found that out.

Correction, their lawyer is paid by the citizens.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Yes, we recently found that out.

Correction, their lawyer is paid by the citizens.

But their budget is "unlimited" compared to yours.

A question(s) I don't know the answer too.

If an officer is in doubt about the legality of a "firearm" .... can they opt to take someone to the station "while we sort things out"? In the back of a squad car in handcuffs? They can do a "search" from their car's computer to see if you have a state CC permit...... can they tap the Fed data base to see if Class IIIs are OK????

 

[vipermd]

This is probably wise, but man, I don't want to live where I need to produce papers for everything I own. It should be enough that I say it's legal. Alas, this is not the world we live in and I know, I live in one of the worst states. Fortunately, papers aren't required, yet.

I carry copies of form 3's for demo NFA items. If someone would ask, I have it, end of story, does not matter who is asking, since it is there in Black & White. Proof of an NFA item, ( Form 3 or 4 ) must be with you in all states. Be Safe.

 

[whataboutbob]

I keep a folded up copy of mine in the grip compartment

 

[Nevada Ed]

I don't know about others but............

if I have a weapon where I can reach it in my auto........
and it is not locked up..................

I had better be on a dirt or gravel back road !!

So you drive and shoot, drunk...............
interesting ?

 

[ladder13]

But their budget is "unlimited" compared to yours.

A question(s) I don't know the answer too.

If an officer is in doubt about the legality of a "firearm" .... can they opt to take someone to the station "while we sort things out"? In the back of a squad car in handcuffs? They can do a "search" from their car's computer to see if you have a state CC permit...... can they tap the Fed data base to see if Class IIIs are OK????

In NC you must inform the police if you have a concealed gun, if they are dealing with you in an official capacity. No reason to run up on one if he's just smiling at you, and tell him you have a concealed gun.
They know when they "run" you during a stop. You can have the gun visible in the car, NC is an OC state without permit.

AFA Class III, no clue.