Another Adam 12 question.

[NYlakesider]

Lots on here are LEOs or retired LEOs and a good bet most reading this have seen Adam 12 on the tube.

Being 75 I watched a few of the shows when they were first out. Now they come on a cable station in my area and I have been watching.

My question is every time I see a cop in the show off duty or plain clothes, they carry a snubbie revolver in a cross draw holster. Never seen another holster or location used but cross draw. Was that some kind of rule?

Now admittedly I might/have missed a couple shows but figured you people would know.

 

[BearBio]

Sign of the times. LAPD cops at that time were required to carry 24/7 and had to be 38 spl.

Like anything else, there were "fads". I've had Bucheimer holsters from that period that were strong side and marked LAPD.

 

[Farmer17]

Most detectives wore suits or sports coats back then and I've lifted weights most of my life and trying to find a suit coat, sports coat, or Blazer is next to impossible to fit me and I'm not that huge. With a suit or sports coat on cross draw is much easier but I don't use one because of the muzzle sweeping a big area when I draw.

 

[mckenney99]

While cross draw holsters have certainly been used by law enforcement officers across the country in the past, I doubt they have been used as much as Hollyweird would have you to believe.
For those that HAVE an obligation to interact with people, sometimes under very close quarters, cross draw has some serious weapon retention issues. Certainly, current training doctrine does not use cross draw much, if at all.

 

[pawncop]

Back in the day, the snub nose revolver for the detective was a sign that you had made it. Now most detectives carry a full sized service sidearm.

 

[Checkman]

My question is every time I see a cop in the show off duty or plain clothes, they carry a snubbie revolver in a cross draw holster. Never seen another holster or location used but cross draw. Was that some kind of rule?

Now admittedly I might/have missed a couple shows but figured you people would know.

My father started his law enforcement career fifty years ago (1970) and retired in 1994. Cross-draw holsters had enjoyed some popularity with officers before he began his career. However by the late sixties most knowledgeable folks understood that weapon retention was a serious issue with the cross-draw. It was far too easy to snatch an officer's revolver in the cross-draw configuration. See Bill Jordan's classic book "No Second Place Winner" (1965) for photos showing how the cross-draw facilitated such efforts. Dad never used a cross-draw holster.

When he transferred to the Idaho State Police in 1973 there were still some older Troopers wearing cross-draw holsters. The Troopers who used the holster were very fast, but Dad was always uncomfortable with how the barrel would sweep everything before being brought to bear on the threat. Dad was well aware of trigger discipline and that your brain is the biggest safety, but he still was uncomfortable with the design.

The holster was authorized until the mid-Seventies when a California Highway Patrolman had his revolver taken from a cross-draw by a suspect he was trying to arrest. The suspect then shot and killed the officer. Dad recalled within a few weeks of that shooting word came down from ISP headquarters in Boise to get rid of the cross-draw holster ASAP.

The L.A.P.D. provided technical assistance to ADAM-12 and there is a good chance that many of the agency's detectives just carried their snubbies in cross-draws because that was what all the cool detectives were doing when the show premiered. As a result the cross-draw got a lot of camera time.

When dad passed his collection came to me in it's entirety (I'm an only child) which included many different holsters that he had accrued. He obtained one of the ISP cross-draw holsters and ,even better, it's for a lefty which I am. Sized for the Model 28 I've played with it and it is very fast and feels more natural than the strong side set-up. However the many safety issues are very obvious.

 

[WardenRoss]

Our SOP specifically forbid cross-draw carry.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

When I carried PC, I carried a Model 19 2.5" in a Smith & Wesson black basket weave cross draw holster. Not because it was cool, but wearing a suit coat or jacket and the need suddenly arises where you need to draw, the flap of a coat gets in the way. With cross draw, you lift the flap up and out of the way with your left hand, and pull the revolver out with your right. Plus if your wearing your shield on your belt near your holster, civilians see the badge and knew I was the good guy.

 

[Checkman]

When I carried PC, I carried a Model 19 2.5" in a Smith & Wesson black basket weave cross draw holster. Not because it was cool, but wearing a suit coat or jacket and the need suddenly arises where you need to draw, the flap of a coat gets in the way. With cross draw, you lift the flap up and out of the way with your left hand, and pull the revolver out with your right. Plus if your wearing your shield on your belt near your holster, civilians see the badge and knew I was the good guy.

I started my career in 2000. At that time detectives in my agency were no longer required to wear suit coats (except in court), but ties and long sleeved shirts were mandatory. One could wear one's badge on a neck chain, but it was frowned upon. During my first rotation as a detective (03-06) the dress rules were relaxed. We were allowed to wear polo shirts and chinos on Fridays and the neck chain badge became preferred for visibility reasons. I'm 5'6" and quickly figured out that people didn't see the badge as readily as when I wore it around my neck.

I returned to detectives last year (2019) and it's really changed. Now we are expected to wear a suit to court, but that's it. The neck tie has disappeared; polo shirts, 5.11 trousers, untucked shirts and tennis shoes are now the norm. It's really disconcerting. Once or twice a week I like to wear a dress shirt, slacks and nice shoes - just to be different. The younger detectives roll their eyes, but I'm in my fifties so I get to be a curmudgeon.

I carry a Glock 19 (it's issued so no caliber war please) by the way. I tried the Glock 26, but I never warmed up to the "Baby Glock".

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

My F-I-L was an firearms instructor with Columbus, Ohio PD in the 60's, 70's and 80's. He taught me the use and care of a revolver. HIS Rule, (not city) was to carry you weapon in the same place every time you put it on! That way, when 1/10ths of seconds count, your training and practice will take you to your handgun when you need it.

So, if I have pants on I have a J-frame in the right front pocket. I may have a holstered weapon on also but my hand knows where to find a gun without my brain thinking about it. Since I started with 1911's, My thumb automatically sweeps the thumb safety also (weather one exists or not!)

These are just ingrained life saving habits, and I'm still alive so I think they work fine!

Ivan

 

[Doug M.]

Cross draw is also usually better if one is seated a lot, for example in a car. That may or may not make up for its flaws. In uniform - no. A zillion times no. There are a small number of good options for uniform in terms of speed and security. If you have idiot command officers who insist on gear that shines or squeaks, do a safety grievance and a complaint to your state version of OSHA. That's a major safety issue and more than ample cause for removal.

As for attire, the ability to blend in to the environment is often a critical safety and performance issue. That may mean shifting attire to match the work issues. Ties are a safety hazard in general, so one should avoid them to the extent possible, and clothes should be bought/fit in a manner that facilitates fighting.

 

[NYlakesider]

My F-I-L was an firearms instructor with Columbus, Ohio PD in the 60's, 70's and 80's. He taught me the use and care of a revolver. HIS Rule, (not city) was to carry you weapon in the same place every time you put it on! That way, when 1/10ths of seconds count, your training and practice will take you to your handgun when you need it.

So, if I have pants on I have a J-frame in the right front pocket. I may have a holstered weapon on also but my hand knows where to find a gun without my brain thinking about it. Since I started with 1911's, My thumb automatically sweeps the thumb safety also (weather one exists or not!)

These are just ingrained life saving habits, and I'm still alive so I think they work fine!

Ivan

That bolded of yours is the main reason I stared this thread. I would have thought patrol guys changing into civvies would try to use the same holster position.

In the show looked like exclusive or almost exclusive use of the cross draw by off duty and plain clothes. I rather enjoy the series and was just trying to see what is what!

 

[Walter Rego]

A friend of mine's dad was a detective in a medium sized city in Sou. Cal in the late 1960's. He carried a Chiefs Special on a belt holster at the four o'clock position. And a sap in his hip pocket. I don't remember ever seeing a belt slide or dump pouch on his belt for a reload. He loaded a tracer round so it would be the first round up. He said that if he needed to fire a shot at a fleeing suspect, they were more inclined to stop if a tracer went by their head. Practices that I am sure were frowned upon by the early 1970's.

 

[Doug M.]

FWIW, I have been told that current practice in LA (PD and maybe area in general) is to have their (plain) clothes altered to work with wearing a full duty belt due to the training issues and the level of danger to which they are exposed.

 

[Eddietruett]

My F-I-L was an firearms instructor with Columbus, Ohio PD in the 60's, 70's and 80's. He taught me the use and care of a revolver. HIS Rule, (not city) was to carry you weapon in the same place every time you put it on! That way, when 1/10ths of seconds count, your training and practice will take you to your handgun when you need it.

So, if I have pants on I have a J-frame in the right front pocket. I may have a holstered weapon on also but my hand knows where to find a gun without my brain thinking about it. Since I started with 1911's, My thumb automatically sweeps the thumb safety also (weather one exists or not!)

These are just ingrained life saving habits, and I'm still alive so I think they work fine!

Ivan

Somebody's gonna ask, so might as well be me. What if you don't have pants on?

 

[zonker5]

I would be willing to bet a cold drink that what and how they carried on Adam-12, Dragnet and the rest of the tv shows was not a reflection of then current police practice but was instead a function of what they had in the prop room at the studio.

 

[max]

I watched a very early version of Police Story on tv lately. They had a big bust at a motel and all of the officers had their snub nose revolvers.

 

[Old cop]

I started my career in 1968, retired 30 years later & never carried cross draw. It had fallen out of favor and was prohibited when I was a detective in the mid '70s. Our range sergeant said it was unsafe so it's not something I ever did, even now in retirement.

 

[WR Moore]

I had a lot of contact with major city LEOs in the 1970s. I was particularly fascinated by most detectives wearing cross draw holsters at the point of the hip. I'd have bet a months pay most would have to use their "other" hand to get the gat out of the holster and put it in the gun hand. But figured that they'd managed to qualify that way.

Somewhat later I found out how they qualified. They'd show up with a briefcase with their duty holster, firearm and cartridge belt slide. They'd stick that on their pants belt and qualify. The gear would go back in the briefcase and they'd leave. The snubby would go back on the belt.

 

[Moo Moo]

I spent the majority of my 21 years in the Police in Plain Clothes as a Detective. I would say that I was in a suit and tie for about 70% of the time. Also depended on the Squad I was working at too. Squads doing proactive investigations (e.g. Drugs, Gangs) casual gear (scruffies) was the go as you were more likely deployed doing surveillance. Reactive investigations (e.g. Homicide, sex crimes) were more likely in suits. And it was always a suit when going to court.