Pepper spray vs bullet. Bullet wins. Update: Charges dropped.

CAJUNLAWYER said:
Problem is that I don't thik the winner is going to like the prize.

This has become a HUGE issue with the proliferation of concealed carry by individuals that do not understand the concept of self defense and a justified shoot. Hell, een I don't understand it sometimes other than to say it is an intensive FACT driven determination coupled with an intensive political decision.

What may be justified under a particular set of facts in one jurisdiction may very well get you indicted and possibly convicted of a homicide in another jurisdiction for the identical fact scenario.

A lot of internet commandos and good law abiding citizens are finding this out the hard way.

Caje's advice.... STAY THE F*** AWAY FROM TROUBLE OR SITUATIONS THAT YOU KNOW BETTER. No reason to insert yourself into ANY situation that may call for the use of deadly force. One of the first things asked in these type of situations is why were you (the shooter) even there in the first place-It goes to merde from there. And don't give me any " I won't let those so and so's dictate where I can go" nonsense. Use some common sense
Click to expand...

Yep. Those who go to "counter-protest" are usually as dumb as those who go to protest. People answering "a call to arms" or some other nonsense. Nobody's opinion is EVER swayed by these protests or counter-protests. We laugh at the NFAC group while some cheer Proud Boys or some other one.

Shooting somebody, even justifiably, can ruin you, finically and personally. Not worth it. That Antifa soyboy you just shot isn't worth the price of the bullet you used to shoot him.
 
I've seen this discussed elsewhere, and I've seen a short video with still photos of the event in question.

It's really an ugly event.
I won't use terms like "security guard" since there's statements he wasn't a legit guard in that circumstance. Pinkerton denied he was one of theirs.

So, we have "shooter" and "shootee", for lack of a better term.

In the clip I've seen shooter grabs at the shootee for some reason. Shootee slaps him and backs away. Shooter draws as shootee backs away; shooter does not back up himself. Shooter appears to shoot AS the shootee is backing away and spraying;

there is a still image where you see the beginning of the spray cloud, AND you can see the empty shell in the air and the slide still out of battery. In other words, shooter had already pulled the trigger before being sprayed.

So I'm sorry, I can't see any justification of this. One guy is holding his can of spray, so you know what he has. He raises it as he backs away from you, which is a defensive posturing, not an assault. You don't get to shoot him for just that.
As the guy isn't licensed to be out there, he doesn't need to be trying to take the spray away from someone else, or otherwise messing with somebody. That's a matter for police or real security. You leave him alone, and if he sprays you the police will attend to him. You don't get to shoot him for finding him moderately offensive
 
So; if an angry person 6 feet away whips out his bear spray and points it at a person he's arguing with, what's about to happen?

Mr. Mouth would be alive had he just walked away with his bear spray in his pocket. Mr. Security Guy wouldn't be in jail if he had backed away and had urged his customers to do the same.

Idiots.
 
Last edited:
These were from another forum, caution- it shows the shooting. I don't want to break rules so take it down if it's inappropriate.


I posted it, because it seems clear to me- guy with spray was backing away.
Shooter was engaged with him prior in some sort of altercation, got smacked in the face with an open hand, and reacted by drawing on him and then firing.

This looks TO ME, like an emotional reaction to being smacked. Not self-defense if I were on jury. And if he's not official security or PD, no justification for his action. He apparently had no authority to mess with the spray can guy.

Added- the shooter is not in any sort of uniform, just a guy in street clothing. Nothing to indicate he is anyone other than another guy in the crowd.


4i6acw.gif

1602455733592.jpg
 
Last edited:
10,000% agree about the people involved being idiots.

Since this is a self defense forum, I have a tactical question as it relates to the dynamics of the shooting as it happened, not the mental stability of the parties involved or whether they should have found better things to do that day.

The shooter has a red dot sight. He also has a WML. Pretty sure the WML has a laser. When you look at the hi-res photos on Getty taken by the Denver Post photographer, you can see the red dot from the WML laser reflected on the right lens of the dead guy's sunglasses. From the reflection of the dot, I'm guessing he got shot in the orbital socket. Just a guess.

The self defense tactical question is, the guy that got shot stepped straight back to deploy his OC. From a tactics standpoint, would he have had a better chance of surviving if he would have stepped to his right instead of straight back?
 
Last edited:
scoobysnacker said:
These were from another forum, caution- it shows the shooting. I don't want to break rules so take it down if it's inappropriate.


I posted it, because it seems clear to me- guy with spray was backing away.
Shooter was engaged with him prior in some sort of altercation, got smacked in the face with an open hand, and reacted by drawing on him and then firing.

This looks TO ME, like an emotional reaction to being smacked. Not self-defense if I were on jury. And if he's not official security or PD, no justification for his action. He apparently had no authority to mess with the spray can guy.

Added- the shooter is not in any sort of uniform, just a guy in street clothing. Nothing to indicate he is anyone other than another guy in the crowd.
Click to expand...

My understanding is the Denver City security guard requirements include a displaying visible identification in addition to registration. The shooter seems to have missed the administrative legalities as well as the criminal law elements.

Certainly there is a role for personnel protection amongst the news media. However, the news media effectively brought the shooter to the scene. Perhaps this will result in the media backing off a bit.

I am familiar with the location this shooting occurred. From other video coverage, there was a police SWAT/tactical team within 20 yards of the shooting (likely closer to 10-15 yards). Expect that will also not break in the shooter's favor.
 
biku324 said:
Again, idiots.
Click to expand...
yes, both idiots.

I see nothing to justify the shooting. The spray guy was backing away and opening space, the shooter could easily have backed away too.

I see zero in the picture that tells me I need to obey the shooter- no uniform, no badge, nothing. He's a guy in the crowd, wearing Wayfarer sunglasses, a baseball cap, and an untucked shirt.
 
I'll wait for the autopsy and investigative reports . . .

Ziggy2525 said:
10,000% agree about the people involved being idiots.

Since this is a self defense forum, I have a tactical question as it relates to the dynamics of the shooting as it happened, not the mental stability of the parties involved or whether they should have found better things to do that day.

The shooter has a red dot sight. He also has a WML. Pretty sure the WML has a laser. When you look at the hi-res photos on Getty taken by the Denver Post photographer, you can see the red dot from the WML laser reflected on the right lens of the dead guy's sunglasses. From the reflection of the dot, I'm guessing he got shot in the orbital socket. Just a guess.

The self defense tactical question is, the guy that got shot stepped straight back to deploy his OC. From a tactics standpoint, would he have had a better chance of surviving if he would have stepped to his right instead of straight back?
Click to expand...
 
At this point I haven't seen anything on who started the argument, what was said or what it was about. That's going to make a difference. If the shooter started it, I'd think Murder 1 would be in order. If the victim started it, Murder 2 or maybe Manslaughter. But IMHO, the shooter was dead wrong regardless.
 
I was expecting another argument about what's best for bear defense :(
 
Ziggy2525 said:
The self defense tactical question is, the guy that got shot stepped straight back to deploy his OC. From a tactics standpoint, would he have had a better chance of surviving if he would have stepped to his right instead of straight back?
Click to expand...

First, I don't believe he stepped back 'to deploy his OC'. The OC was already in his right hand, held down at his side during the physical confrontation. The frame by frame clearly shows the shooter starting his drawstroke prior to the OC coming up. IMHO the victim raised the OC in response to the shooter drawing the gun. Obviously not the best response, but it was already in his hand, so that's what he went with.

To answer your question, many folks train to get off the 'X' with lateral movement. Whether that would have helped, or only delayed the result here is hard to say. The movement is intended to cause the aggressor to have to process more, and give time for 'reaction' to catch up to 'action'. I have seen it work in force on force training, but that doesn't mean it will always work.

Another point I haven't seen discussed:

The shooter obviously trains... that should be clear from speed and shot placement from concealment. What I find disturbing is that he clearly trained to a headshot from concealment, a tactic I see as a countermeasure to body armor: ie. how to engage a police officer. If this is widespread training methodology among those with the shooter's political ideology, the good guys need to be adjusting tactics.
 
Rodan said:
What I find disturbing is that he clearly trained to a headshot from concealment, a tactic I see as a countermeasure to body armor: ie. how to engage a police officer.
Click to expand...

I certainly don't mean to defend the shooter in this scenario, but body armor is a spreading reality and criminals wear it, too. I've read several times online where folks talked about training for headshots to counter bad guys in armor.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top