Remington 200 Grain 38

[jupiter1]

500 fps out of a snubby?? Remember those old timey films of those traveling shows where the guy caught a bullet in his teeth? Maybe it was possible after all.

I've seen chronograph tests from years ago that listed velocities in the high 500 to 600fps from a 2 inch bbl.
As far as catching a bullet in your teeth, think about catching a broad head traveling at half the velocity of those 200 grainers, in your teeth. I don't think there would be any volunteers for that.

The low velocity concept interests me. All of those black powder revolvers from years ago seemed to be satisfactory back then. They could have lengthened the revolver cylinder to achieve higher velocities but did not do it. In fact, in the case of the .44 caliber revolvers, Colt shortened the Walker cylinder when they came out with the Dragoons and then shortened the cylinders some more for the 1860 Army; no one seemed to complain. Something similar was done to the .45 Long Colt cartridge. People seemed to be satisfied as long as there was adequate penetration.

I tried the Remington and Winchester 200gr loads in my M60, which shot a little low with 158 gr loads.They shot to point of aim with that gun; wish I had some more, I might carry them.

 

[Buford57]

Two rounds of the Winchester version from a 2" barrel will stop an opossum at 10 feet. Or so a reliable source reports.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That H&G #127 bullet looks like a great bowling pin match bullet. I'm sure you could get that 230gr bullet moving fast enough to knock the pin off the table.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The Super Police was introduced over here more or less contemporaneous with the .38/ 200 over there . The velocities for Super Police in .38 Special and .38 S&W were more or less identical , within lot to lot variation .

The low velocities were a Feature , not a Flaw . The whole point was for the bullet to be just stabilized enough to fly through the air point forewards with acceptable accuracy , but imeadately tumble on impact . Higher velocities would stablize them Too much .

Contemporary reports from LE engagement in the 1930's generally had them having greater terminal effect than the standard 158 RN . But also frequent reports of them deflecting instead of penetrating car bodies , and front or rear windows in not striking at exactly 90 deg .

In the '30s and '40s they were used by a significant minority of PDs . And that in turn created a certain level of consumer demand from the shooting general public , sufficient for W-W and R-P to catalogue them for decades .

But as we all know , in the 1960's Lee Jaras made both 158 and 200 gr LRN instantly obsolete for both LE Duty and Self Defense .

 

[DWalt]

The 200 grain police load was predated by the British 38/200, the 38 S&W, with a 200 grain bullet.


38/200 MkI

After the First World War, there was a move away from the larger .455 calibre. The professional core of the pre-war British Army had been decimated and replaced by a larger and mostly conscripted force. It was recognized that the short training period available to the new recruits did not give them time to become proficient with the large-bore .455 revolvers, and that a smaller caliber would be easier for new recruits to develop competence with in pistol shooting.

British Army initial specifications submitted to ammunition manufacturers for the .38/200 military loading were as follows:

Cartridge: .38 S&W (.38-200)Muzzle velocity: 625 ft/s (191 m/s) (+ or – 25 ft/s (7.6 m/s)) from 4-inch (102 mm) barrel.

Webley demonstrated a lighter version of their Mk III revolver with modified .38 S&W ammunition, firing a heavy 200-grain (13 g) bullet, later known as the 380/200. It received favorable reports from the Army and the revolver was accepted in principle.

For awhile after WWI, the .380 Mk I cartridge used a 200 grain lead bullet, and its ballistics were very similar to the US .38 S&W "Super Police" load. However, prior to WWII, someone finally figured out that the Mk I's lead bullet was prohibited for use in warfare within the requirements of the Hague Convention, as it was defined as being an expanding bullet. Therefore the British were required to replace it with a lighter (178 grain) FMJ bullet, and the cartridge was re-classified as the Mk II (or Mk 2), and was used during and after WWII in several British service revolvers. To the best of my knowledge, the British never called either military cartridge the .38/200, always the .380 Revolver Mk I (or Mk II).

 

[sigp220.45]

I have a copy of this somewhere. Can't put my hands on it right now. They tested some popular loads of the day on some junk cars.

There is a great photo of the side window of an old car that was shot dead-on with a 200 grain .38 Special load from a 2" gun. The glass was starred and pushed in but not penetrated. The bullet fell to the ground.

Shots to the doors resulted in dents and gouges.

One of the testers looked at the results and said: Halt! Or I'll scratch your paint!

 

[jupiter1]

One of the testers looked at the results and said: Halt! Or I'll scratch your paint!

I remember that article. The 200 gr load was never intended to defeat cars. It is an antipersonnel round that is a good penetrator of tissue/bone. Most RNL loads, in standard service calibers, are handicapped penetrating auto sheet metal due to the deformation of soft lead bullets. That's why the metal capped, metal penetrating loads were developed. Trying to shoot most handgun rounds through cars, to reach an opponent, is an iffy proposition at best.

 

[Charlie Foxtrott]

The British were fond of it.

And Colt, S&W, and others made revolvers specifically made for the round. I have a Colt Official police made in 1941 that is marked specifically for that round. And ammunition is still available.

 

[biku324]

I have a copy of this somewhere. Can't put my hands on it right now. They tested some popular loads of the day on some junk cars.

There is a great photo of the side window of an old car that was shot dead-on with a 200 grain .38 Special load from a 2" gun. The glass was starred and pushed in but not penetrated. The bullet fell to the ground.

Shots to the doors resulted in dents and gouges.

One of the testers looked at the results and said: Halt! Or I'll scratch your paint!

We (NMSP) used to stop felony pursuits with gunfire when all other means had failed in the 80s/90s. Unless you get a car tire (semi truck tires deflate slowly with bullet holes) a radiator, or the driver suddenly decides things are getting too serious, shooting into cars simply is ineffective, at trucks even less effective. This is true with handguns, shotguns, or rifles.

 

[leuss]

I have this nice load in my small collection (bought in Germany). Made in 1975 )).

 

[cmj8591]

We (NMSP) used to stop felony pursuits with gunfire when all other means had failed in the 80s/90s. Unless you get a car tire (semi truck tires deflate slowly with bullet holes) a radiator, or the driver suddenly decides things are getting too serious, shooting into cars simply is ineffective, at trucks even less effective. This is true with handguns, shotguns, or rifles.

The good old days! If you did that now, someone else would be living in your house.

 

[Patrick L]

I could be wrong, but I too thought the 200 grain 38 special liad was a police development for increased penetration. I think that sort of morphed into the . 38-44 and ultimately the. 357 Magnum. But like I said I might be mistaken on that.

 

[biku324]

The good old days! If you did that now, someone else would be living in your house.

Yup, that's just fact!

 

[DWalt]

I could be wrong, but I too thought the 200 grain 38 special liad was a police development for increased penetration. I think that sort of morphed into the . 38-44 and ultimately the. 357 Magnum. But like I said I might be mistaken on that.

You are. The purported purpose of the "Super Police" load was for increased effectiveness on human bodies. It had no relation to the development of .38-44 or .357 Magnum cartridges. There are some factory letters in which it is stated thet the S&W Heavy Duty revolver was designed to fire the .38 Super Police load. That is a very obvious mistake.