Primer power?

[BigBill]

The primers in question is the large rifle. There’s three different large rifle primers.

Standard large rifle

CCI #34 1.5 times hotter than standard equal to 1.5 grains of powder. Used in floating firing pin military rifles to avoid slamfires.

Magnum large rifle primer. 3 times hotter than standard equal to 3 grains of powder.

Am I correct? I loaded some 30-06 with magnum primers it feels hot.

 

[ReloadforFun]

I've always understood that military primers are the same as magnum except less sensitivity because of the unconstrained firing pins of military guns.

Magnum primers are called for when the case volume and powder quantity need the additional heat and pressure and when shooting in sub-freezing conditions.

Since the military may be in artic conditions, they don't want to worry about having the "right" ammunition, so they make it all capable by using magnum level primers.

 

[alwslate]

I would like to know your source for thinking #34 primers are 1 1/2 times hotter and magnum primers are 3 times hotter than standard primers. Without any real evidence these figures seem way off to me. A primer that is equal to 3 grs of powder?

 

[Cdog]

I use magnum large rifle for many standard chamberings, including 30-06.

3 grains of powder? Which powder?

With some combo's I may pick up a bit higher velocity with magnum primers, but usually it's 50 fps or so.

I kept magnum primers on hand due to ball powders and autoloader apps. Eventually I started using them in most large rifle loads.

I've also found many times they're available when standard large rifle aren't.

When changing components I back off and work back up. My experience has been brass case thickness/capacity has proven to provide more change than whether I use CCI 200 or 250 primers.

 

[gwpercle]

You are incorrect .

Things like primers , made by so many different manufacturers , are not so cut and dried when it comes to burn and pressue . They vary ... and they vary a lot .

And what "powder" are you referencing ... so many powders all with different burn rates .

The whole subject is way more complicated than your simple explanation and the reason is there are just too many variables in primers .
Gary

 

[BrovoEchoSierra]

I never heard of the rubric that you quoted. It makes sense that magnum primers would be hotter, and thus a slight reduction in powder is probably needed if approaching max loads.
Regardless of the brand, of primer, or if its magnum or standard, its wise to work up to a max load, and watch for pressure signs.
Even an exact match, to the data in the loading manual, cases, powder, primers all the same; different guns handle pressures differently.
Chamber size, lead depth,head space, even the rifling can cause variations in pressures.
No magic solution, for predicting how primers, or any other component will react until the trigger is pulled, except for start light and go up carefully.

No expert here, just a very cautious re-loader with about 40 years of loading experience.
So far no ka-booms, other than a universal made carbine that fired out of battery. Not my gun, not my ammo, just a gun with a known issue with the brand of gun.
I was shooting it at the time, gun survived, but needed repairs, no injuries to me.
I learned a lesson, about how even a little bitty case like a 30 carbine is a bomb if not properly contained.

 

[dave1918a2]

In over 50 years of reloading, I have never heard or read any of what You are saying. I use magnum rifle primers like I use magnum pistol primers. Seldom use standard primers,except for match loads.

 

[teletech]

So far no ka-booms, other than a universal made carbine that fired out of battery. Not my gun, not my ammo, just a gun with a known issue with the brand of gun.
I was shooting it at the time, gun survived, but needed repairs, no injuries to me.
I learned a lesson, about how even a little bitty case like a 30 carbine is a bomb if not properly contained.

Worth noting that the Universal carbines varied, with some production having the safety notch in the bolt to prevent the hammer hitting the pin if the bolt wasn't in battery and other models lacking this important safety feature.

 

[pantannojack]

I shot many 10's of thousands of rounds during the 80's, 90's, and 00's thru M1G and M1A in OTC National Match High Power Rifle comp. All matches were in the Sonora Desert in all seasons. I used only F210 Match or Rem 9 1/2 primers with IMR or H 4895, IMR 4064, or BW36 powders. I never had a slam fire or double fire from one trigger pull. I had never heard of the "special" designated primer mentioned. I never encountered any such Know it All's to gain such special knowledge.

 

[DWalt]

The CCI #34 is basically a standard LR primer in its ignition characteristics, but is less impact sensitive for use in military rifles to reduce the likelihood of a slamfire. I have fired lots of regular LR-primed .30-'06 through an M1 without ever having a slamfire. Maybe I was just lucky. But I have nothng against #34 primers. I have several thousand of them.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The CCI #34 is basically a standard LR primer in its ignition characteristics, but is less impact sensitive for use in military rifles to reduce the likelihood of a slamfire. I have fired lots of regular LR-primed .30-'06 through an M1 without ever having a slamfire. Maybe I was just lucky. But I have nothng against #34 primers. I have several thousand of them.

Actually the CCI #34 are magnum class primers which are less impact sensitive. So are the CCI #41 primers. Don't take my word for it, ask CCI like I did.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king..."

In an era of no primers, smalls usually work in small cases and large primers just may go BANG! as well...?

But having NO primers almost always means NO BANG at all!

Cheers!

P.S. Be careful out there!

 

[gwpercle]

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king..."

In an era of no primers, smalls usually work in small cases and large primers just may go BANG! as well...?

But having NO primers almost always means NO BANG at all!

Cheers!

P.S. Be careful out there!

Amen Brother ... I'll second that !

My new motto - Load like you got some sense !
Gary

 

[DWalt]

Actually the CCI #34 are magnum class primers which are less impact sensitive. So are the CCI #41 primers. Don't take my word for it, ask CCI like I did.

The CCI #34 is apparently considered a Milspec primer, but there are numerous LR milspec primers used in U. S. military ammunition, and which one the #34 matches is not specified. Most information says that the primer cup and mixture used is the same as the CCI Large Magnum primer, but the anvil is slightly different in order to make the #34 less impact sensitive.

Regardless, I ran across one article in which about every LR primer on the market was tested in .308, all loads using IMR 4895 and 150 grain bullets and all cartridges were otherwise identical except for the primer. The average MVs of all loads recorded were very close together, and if anything, the load using a #34 primer produced a slightly lower average MV than did standard CCI 200 LR primers with the same load. So whatever primer mixture is used in the #34 primer, it doesn't appear to be any "hotter" than any other LR primer on the market.

About three years ago did a very similar test myself, but with the .270 Winchester, loads differing only in the primer used, CCI 200 vs CCI 250. I think I used IMR 4350 with 130 grain bullets. I was very careful to match weigh all cases and bullets to make all cartridges as nearly identical as I could. The .270 loads made up using the standard CCI 200 primer had a slightly higher average MV, and they also grouped tighter at 100 yards than the loads using the Magnum CCI 250 primer. If there is any ballistic performance difference between the CCI 200 and the CCI 250 primers, it doesn't show up in average MV.

 

[glowe]

I am in the unfortunate position of not having any small pistol primers available, so set out to duplicate my standard velocities by using small rifle primers. I loaded with both pistol and rifle primers and consistently found that I gained around 50 fps with small rifle primers. I can now confidently load my 38s using small rifle primers until the market resupplies SPPs. This equated to about a 7% increase in velocities for the loads I tested. Another data point I noticed is that the small rifle primer recorded a lower standard deviation than small pistol primers, which is certainly a good thing.

Owning a chronograph is essential for this type of load development and I would not hesitate to try primer substitution by loading both primers and check velocities at the range. Start out loading about 10% less powder and check the magnum primer velocities, comparing them to your standard primer load velocities. Load rounds in groups of 5, slowly stepping up to standard amounts of powder with magnum primers and stop testing when you reach the proper velocities to match those using standard rifle primers. Pull the bullets on the rest. Same testing can be done with military primers and you can develop loads that match velocities and are perfectly safe substituting the different primers.

 

[alwslate]

I agree that having a chronograph is essential to effective load development. Regarding your velocity differential between SP and SR primers I have found through my chronographing that SR primers are basically the same as SPM primers. Velocity increase will vary with the powder charge and consistency will always improve.

 

[41 mag Dave]

The CCI #34 primer is a Magnum strength primer for consistent ignition of ball type powders.

The other difference is in the space between the tip of the anvil and the cup of the primer. The larger space makes the primer less sensitive.

The CCI #34 will reduce the chance of slamfire. Slamfires will damage the firearm and possibly the shooter. I have used the CCI mil spec primers whenever available in my loads for semi-autos.

 

[DWalt]

"The CCI #34 primer is a Magnum strength primer..."

I would REALLY like for you to explain what the precise definition of "Magnum Strength Primer" is.

 

[DWalt]

I am in the unfortunate position of not having any small pistol primers available, so set out to duplicate my standard velocities by using small rifle primers. I loaded with both pistol and rifle primers and consistently found that I gained around 50 fps with small rifle primers. I can now confidently load my 38s using small rifle primers until the market resupplies SPPs. This equated to about a 7% increase in velocities for the loads I tested. Another data point I noticed is that the small rifle primer recorded a lower standard deviation than small pistol primers, which is certainly a good thing.

The principal difference between the SPP and the SRP is that the cup thickness is slightly greater in the SR (and SPM) in order to withstand higher chamber pressures better. Dimensionally they are identical. Many years ago, I thoroughly tested SP and SR primers in .38 Special target loads, and found no significant differences in MV and grouping performance. From that time, I have treated them as equivalent for most handgun loads. The only caution is that some handguns may not have enough firing pin impact energy, due to a weak spring or whatever, to reliably detonate an SR primer.

My concern is that many seem to conflate the meaning of "Magnum" to suggest that the word on a primer box indicates that it is somehow supercharged in its ballistic properties when that does not appear to be the case at all, the real purpose being to indicate that it will withstand the higher chamber pressures usually associated with Magnum cartridges without failure.

 

[mikld]

Hmmm. Since the primer shortage started there have been an additional 10,498 "Primers?" threads on reloading forums. The replies have been "factual", "theoritical" and plain old off base misinformed opinions. I think I see all these in this thread (I normally pass on any "Primers?" thread). I know what I can use in whatever application, most info from trusted texts, and choose not to "discuss" my knowlwdge as there are too many "primer experts" on reloading forums to "correct" me...