3rd Gen frame/slide internal wear

[JohnHL]

OK, guys.

You win.

I'll throw in the towel.

The O.P. noticed something that concerned him and I and others noticed burrs or peening on the barrel lugs, especially the right side.

I didn't suggest the pistol was a grenade or that the shooter should be wearing a suit of armor.

Just that it doesn't look right and I'd like to know more before I say it's normal.

Between complete pistols, parts kits, slide assemblies, and unattached barrels, I probably personally only have about 50 or 60.

And that doesn't include other peoples pistols I've examined and hundreds of pictures on the web.

I've never seen that kid of peening or "sloppy machining" on a barrel, ever.

But I'll defer to the claimed greater experience of others and wish the O.P., good luck...

John

 

[Fastbolt]

OK, guys.

You win.

I'll throw in the towel.

The O.P. noticed something that concerned him and I and others noticed burrs or peening on the barrel lugs, especially the right side.

I didn't suggest the pistol was a grenade or that the shooter should be wearing a suit of armor.

Just that it doesn't look right and I'd like to know more before I say it's normal.

Between complete pistols, parts kits, slide assemblies, and unattached barrels, I probably personally only have about 50 or 60.

And that doesn't include other peoples pistols I've examined and hundreds of pictures on the web.

I've never seen that kid of peening or "sloppy machining" on a barrel, ever.

But I'll defer to the claimed greater experience of others and wish the O.P., good luck...

John

Hey, don't feel so alone. I'm nobody's expert, either, although I have been involved in observing and helping to maintain and repair 500-odd early 3rd gen guns, and then later an equal number of late production TSW's (replacing the older guns), and the assorted personally-owned ones brought to my attention. Not the largest group sampling, to be sure, but enough to make me feel confident the things I was being told in armorer training, and by the pistol repair guys at the factory, were what we were seeing in our guns.

I often called someone I knew at the factory to ask about these sort of things (sometimes sending pics), and asked the various folks teaching the armorer classes over the years about such things.

The burrs left from manufacturing are things that may sometimes require addressing by a repair tech, or an agency armorer, especially in aluminum framed guns. I'd not be so quick to deburr some things when it came to steel-on-steel contact points (unless it involved sliding or pivoting parts, of course, where interference with normal functioning may result). Steel-on-aluminum situations? The steel usually wins.

The raised burr under that one side of the barrel, at the end? A smith or armorer could dress that in 30-60 seconds, or less, with a red stone. The very slight burred edge raised along the opposite side? A couple or three strokes with a stone. No power tools.

Yes, it would've been nice if the technician assembling and fitting that pistol (extractor and sear release lever usually need some fitting) had taken the time to knock those things down. It is what it is, though.

However, these burred spots are the kind of things that you don't want to practice the "fix it till it's broke" philosophy.

 

[JohnHL]

Fastbolt, if'n you say them burrs have been there since the day it left the factory, then I'll take your word for it.

John

 

[Fastbolt]

Oh, BTW, that pic of my 4013TSW? I remember when it concerned me at the time. Fortunately, one of the factory guys was at our agency teaching one of our update classes, and I had a chance to bring it in to show him. He said in his opinion it was normal, and that he had a couple of 4003TSW's with the same or more wear in the same spots ... and his guns had been showing that amount of wear for the last several thousands of rounds apiece, since they the 3rd gen .40's he used for weekend competitive shooting.

Now, I've presently got a CS45, my own personal gun, which is starting to exhibit some deformation of the R/side frame camming should. It's always had the usual "chewing" in the front of the cam cut, but now the top is starting show some lifting at the front of cam surface. Eventual work-hardening of aluminum, and some deformation shifting of the metal from the barrel lug slamming down and against it? Dunno.


Since everyone I knew at the factory who had years of experience in building and repairing these guns has since retired, I'm not sure who I can send any pics to, to ask about it. I can't say how long it's been like that, for sure, either, as I only noticed it under the bright light of the magnifying lamp while cleaning it at my bench a while back.

I've tried to estimate how many rounds I've fired through it since I bought it in '99, but it's difficult because I don't log round counts. I just kept running guesstimates of use based upon remembering how much I was shooting the various guns each month, box & case-wise, so to speak. The first year I owned that CS45 I think I flew by 2500rds in familiarization shooting. Since then it's been my frequent 'range beater' .45, too. Sometimes more than other times, over the course of a year. If I had to guess, I'd put the round count at somewhere between 15,000-25,000+/- rounds.

Well, I remember a repair tech explaining that we'd see more shiny wear on the steel frames of our 4566TSW's (and aluminum wear on the 4513TSW's) on one side, than the other, due to the way the barrel torques to resist the bullet's passage and drops down onto the top of the frame. He said the barrel would hit a bit harder on one side ... and I think it was the R/side? If so, that might explain why the R/side cam lug cut is starting to lift a bit. It was being hit harder by the R/side barrel cam surface?

So, I guess the question is when will the wear reach the point where it interferes with unlocking and locking, and the overall "timing" of the extraction, ejection and then feeding & chambering parts of the cycle of operation? I was told that if the cycle of operation reaches the point where manually cycling the slide exhibited roughness, like gravel being in it, due to the uneven engagement and release of the barrel from the frame cam cuts, the aluminum frame has reached the end of its service life.

A good friend - another S&W armorer from a nearby agency - had that happen with his hard-used 4013 (single stack .40 on the .45 frame). he sent it back to the factory and they told him they didn't have anymore 4013 frames, so they offered him a replacement of another model of similar value. Maybe if mine reaches the point where functioning is affected I'll contact S&W and see what they say. I wouldn't mind a Shield 40, as that's on our state's stupid Roster (the .45 isn't, since it's a newer model that wasn't in production when the Shield 9/40 models were added to the Roster just in time to mist being affected by the micro-stamping requirement that was ordered enacted by AG Harris in early 2013. Sigh.

Anyway, I'll post a couple pics of the CS45 and the cam cuts in the frame, just for entertainment purpose. I have a 4513TW that I ordered and bought at approx the same time as the CS45, but it doesn't exhibit the same deformation of the R/side cam cut. Of course, it's both a larger gun, with longer nested recoil springs, with less violent recoil/cycling ... and I haven't made the same effort to wear it out. (I used my issued 4513TSW for that for several years. )

The pics:
Left side (normal)


Right side (slight lifting of front)



The edges appear even when viewed from the top (notice the heavy marking from the barrel dropping onto the top of the frame on each side, though, which has been happening for more than 20 years of shooting)


I'll probably back off a bit on my efforts to wear it out as a range beater/retirement weapon.

Might wait until - if? - the frame wear reaches the point where cycling appears to be affected, and then send the pics (and the gun, if they'll look at it), and see if they'll replace it with something else, since I'm the original owner and it was a LE gun, and now a retired LE gun. Who knows?

 

[Fastbolt]

Fastbolt, if'n you say them burrs have been there since the day it left the factory, then I'll take your word for it.

John

I've seen a lot of machining "rolled" burrs (build up from cutters), and simply unfinished sharp burred edges over time.

Do you have another thought of how the steel could acquire those artifacts, other than being caused by contact with a softer aluminum frame? Those spots are where the cutters could leave things.

I've seen worse left on both steel and aluminum forgings from machining in NIB 3rd gens. Probably why they taught armorers to dress burrs if they found them (in critical spots), and give us a couple types of files and a red stone in the old armorer kits.

The trick (if there is one) is to figure out what's actually needed to address a potential functioning issue, versus just wanting to scratch some itch about cosmetics (which isn't a concern in issued duty weapons, since they acquire a lot of "cosmetic artifacts" during their service lives ). BTDT. Made the mistakes and learned from them.

 

[Fastbolt]

BTW folks, BMCM is the smith and machinist. I'm just a retired, retread armorer of a previous time. I'd give a lot of consideration to BMCM's thoughts and opinions.

 

[18DAI]

Thanks Fastbolt! An education as always!

Your CS45 looks about like my 4513TSW. Well used, but not abused.

My camming shoulders have their edges intact. So far! And I have enough recoil springs to last me till retirement.

I second your thoughts on BMCM! Regards 18DAI

 

[GaryS]

When I have a chance, I'll post a couple of pictures of my 3913TSW. I took a quick look at it and it appears to have been very lightly used. Which may or may not have some value to the thread.

 

[1ActuaL3]

Man I'm glad this post got so much attention! Aside from learning how to deal with the original issue, I'm also learning a great amount about wear and tear on these fine pistols in general. Once I get back I'll post some more photos and hopefully can get enough angles of the working parts. Appreciate everyone's contributions to the discussion, it has made much more confident both in this 3953TSW and Smith & Wesson's craftsmanship.

 

[JohnHL]

I've seen a lot of machining "rolled" burrs (build up from cutters), and simply unfinished sharp burred edges over time.

Do you have another thought of how the steel could acquire those artifacts, other than being caused by contact with a softer aluminum frame?

I don't know...

Can you tell me why my high carbon steel ax gets dull when all I use it for is chopping softer wood?

The barrel steel on these pistols is a much softer alloy than ax blade steel.

And work hardened aluminum is much harder than firewood.

Also, it's curious that the damage is on the right hand side, right where the S&W Repair Technician told you it would be.

Like I said, it doesn't look right to me.

I didn't say I know what caused it, only that it justified further investigation.

Maybe the O.P. should send some pictures to the S&W Repair Department and ask them.

Either that or depend on the assumed infallibility of some members of this Forum.

Good luck!

John

 

[JohnHL]

Oh, and I have a 3953TSW.

Nothing under my hood looks like that.

John

 

[Fastbolt]

I don't know...

Can you tell me why my high carbon steel ax gets dull when all I use it for is chopping softer wood?

The barrel steel on these pistols is a much softer alloy than ax blade steel.

And work hardened aluminum is much harder than firewood.

Also, it's curious that the damage is on the right hand side, right where the S&W Repair Technician told you it would be.

Like I said, it doesn't look right to me.

I didn't say I know what caused it, only that it justified further investigation.

Maybe the O.P. should send some pictures to the S&W Repair Department and ask them.

Either that or depend on the assumed infallibility of some members of this Forum.

Good luck!

John

Your comments about your steel ax getting dull when chopping wood is bordering on ... silly and disingenuous? ... but you knew that.

Sure. Go ahead. Have the OP send some pics to S&W, and they can likely be forwarded to the Houlton plant, if need be, so the metal (frame) pistol repair folks look at them. They've still got to have some folks left there who produced and repaired the 3rd gen's, since they've only been out of the LE catalog for less than 10 years. (And they're making all those SW1911's there.)

I certainly asked such questions as a younger armorer, both of the head armorer at my agency (longtime S&W armorer), another outside agency armorer who hosted most of the armorer training classes back then, and the various factory LE contact folks, making sure my grasp and understanding of what I was seeing and what they were telling me was correct. BTDT. I thought of myself as a sponge back then, looking to get as much info as possible.

Just because nothing apparent in the OP's pics causes me any undue concern about those marks, that doesn't mean I can pretend to know what's happening with the OP's particular gun. Maybe if I could hold it, examine it and inspect it in person I could get a better idea of the condition and functioning of that particular gun, based simply upon my experience and training as a S&W 3rd gen pistol armorer. Maybe. Maybe not. Might find something that would make me want to ask the factory to inspect it further, too. Might not. Dunno. Pics are only pics.

No, I didn't find it 'curious' that the wear pattern on the frame (from the unlocked barrel's impact) would happen to agree with what I was told by the guy at the factory, and I had so reason to doubt his explanation. (He'd been working on the guns since the days of the Auto Improvement Program, and worked closely with the engineers.) He was the same guy who helped walk me through understanding the machining and revisions that were occurring over the years, and which occasionally resulted in me noticing some new things as I was servicing the guns.

Now, since I've already stated numerous times throughout the forum, over time, that I'm neither a factory technician nor a licensed gunsmith, but only a LE agency field armorer, it ought to be quite apparent that I don't consider myself anybody's "expert". Nor have I ever represented myself that way.

Originally, my interest in becoming a factory trained field armorer for some different brands of guns was to enable me to do a couple of things.

First, to enable me to help service, maintain and repair our inventory of duty weapons so I could have confidence in them operating according to factory standards and specs when carried and used in the hands of men and women to whom they were issued. Lives were at stake, right?

Secondly, to be able to service, maintain and repair my personally-owned guns - and those of other guys and gals who might bring their personally-owned off-duty/retirement guns to me (since I was authorized to service and repair personal weapons) - both during my career, and into my retirement. I even had some calls from outside agencies, asking for input, recommendations and repairs.

If I'd wanted to be a gunsmith, and hang out my own shingle, I'd have gone through one of the gunsmithing programs. I didn't, and don't, though.

OP, while you can likely find a variety of opinions and experiences among online gun forums, you can always contact S&W and ask to send those pics in an email, asking if they would offer an opinion. If they think it's a problem, and the result of some factory materials or manufacturing defect, they'd be the ones to make a definitive decision.

Everything the rest of us opine is for the purpose of polite conversation, exchanging whatever knowledge, experiences and opinions we may have as fellow gun owners and enthusiasts.

I've found and dressed some burrs on my own guns, and any number of duty weapons, and I have similar marks on the aluminum frames of my own guns, and have seen more similar ones on different vintages of 3rd gen's than I could probably ever remember.

Doesn't mean there may not be something else that might be found in your gun, if it were thoroughly inspected in person, and none of us can pretend to know otherwise without actually having the gun in-hand, on a bench, checking everything.

 

[18DAI]

JohnHL, I didn't know you were a factory trained armorer with decades of experience servicing hundreds of agency firearms.

Sorry there wasn't a major problem with the OPs pistol JohnHL, so you could..........whatever.

 

[JohnHL]

Your comments about your steel ax getting dull when chopping wood is bordering on ... silly and disingenuous? ... but you knew that.

Silly and disingenuous?

Any more silly and disingenuous than asking me if I knew how the softer (than an ax blade) steel barrel alloy can get a rounded edge by beating against a harder (than firewood) work hardened aluminum lug?

Hmm...

Sure. Go ahead. Have the OP send some pics to S&W, and they can likely be forwarded to the Houlton plant, if need be, so the metal (frame) pistol repair folks look at them. They've still got to have some folks left there who produced and repaired the 3rd gen's, since they've only been out of the LE catalog for less than 10 years. (And they're making all those SW1911's there.)

That's all I've been saying.

Sounds to me like we are in complete accord.

I certainly asked such questions as a younger armorer, both of the head armorer at my agency (longtime S&W armorer), another outside agency armorer who hosted most of the armorer training classes back then, and the various factory LE contact folks, making sure my grasp and understanding of what I was seeing and what they were telling me was correct. BTDT. I thought of myself as a sponge back then, looking to get as much info as possible.

So what is the problem with someone other than you asking the questions?

Again we seem to be in agreement.

Just because nothing apparent in the OP's pics causes me any undue concern about those marks, that doesn't mean I can pretend to know what's happening with the OP's particular gun. Maybe if I could hold it, examine it and inspect it in person I could get a better idea of the condition and functioning of that particular gun, based simply upon my experience and training as a S&W 3rd gen pistol armorer. Maybe. Maybe not. Might find something that would make me want to ask the factory to inspect it further, too. Might not. Dunno. Pics are only pics.

I said the very same thing, i.e more investigation is warranted.

No, I didn't find it 'curious' that the wear pattern on the frame (from the unlocked barrel's impact) would happen to agree with what I was told by the guy at the factory, and I had so reason to doubt his explanation. (He'd been working on the guns since the days of the Auto Improvement Program, and worked closely with the engineers.) He was the same guy who helped walk me through understanding the machining and revisions that were occurring over the years, and which occasionally resulted in me noticing some new things as I was servicing the guns.

Well if you didn't find that coincidence curious, then tell us why you didn't find it curious.

Now, since I've already stated numerous times throughout the forum, over time, that I'm neither a factory technician nor a licensed gunsmith, but only a LE agency field armorer, it ought to be quite apparent that I don't consider myself anybody's "expert". Nor have I ever represented myself that way.

Originally, my interest in becoming a factory trained field armorer for some different brands of guns was to enable me to do a couple of things.

First, to enable me to help service, maintain and repair our inventory of duty weapons so I could have confidence in them operating according to factory standards and specs when carried and used in the hands of men and women to whom they were issued. Lives were at stake, right?

Secondly, to be able to service, maintain and repair my personally-owned guns - and those of other guys and gals who might bring their personally-owned off-duty/retirement guns to me (since I was authorized to service and repair personal weapons) - both during my career, and into my retirement. I even had some calls from outside agencies, asking for input, recommendations and repairs.

If I'd wanted to be a gunsmith, and hang out my own shingle, I'd have gone through one of the gunsmithing programs. I didn't, and don't, though.

I'm neither questioning your credentials or your motivations.

I'm simply suggesting (and agreeing with you) that the O.P. consult the factory.

I saw something-I said something.

OP, while you can likely find a variety of opinions and experiences among online gun forums, you can always contact S&W and ask to send those pics in an email, asking if they would offer an opinion. If they think it's a problem, and the result of some factory materials or manufacturing defect, they'd be the ones to make a definitive decision.

Everything the rest of us opine is for the purpose of polite conversation, exchanging whatever knowledge, experiences and opinions we may have as fellow gun owners and enthusiasts.

I've found and dressed some burrs on my own guns, and any number of duty weapons, and I have similar marks on the aluminum frames of my own guns, and have seen more similar ones on different vintages of 3rd gen's than I could probably ever remember.

Doesn't mean there may not be something else that might be found in your gun, if it were thoroughly inspected in person, and none of us can pretend to know otherwise without actually having the gun in-hand, on a bench, checking everything.

Again we agree.

So why the argument.

John

 

[JohnHL]

JohnHL, I didn't know you were a factory trained armorer with decades of experience servicing hundreds of agency firearms.

Sorry there wasn't a major problem with the OPs pistol JohnHL, so you could..........whatever.

So I could.........whatever.... What?

I've got nothing to hide.

Here is the private message you sent me:

Are you off your meds? You ought to delete your post number 30. You look foolish.

Just cause you desperately WANT there to be a problem with that kids new pistol, is no reason to denegrate a long standing QUALIFIED members with a history of helping others.

Way to bring more folks in to a little visited part of the forum. You owe Fastbolt AND the membership an apology. Jerk!

I don't want there to be a problem with the O.P.'s pistol.

I expressed an opinion that something didn't look right and the O.P. might want to consult the factory.

Fastbolt said as much in his answer.


John, I thought you were my friend.

That's the saddest part of all this.

John

 

[Fastbolt]

... steel barrel alloy can get a rounded edge by beating against a harder (than firewood) work hardened aluminum lug?

What rounded edge? You mean the imprints left by the barrel dropping down against the frame and leaving those lines? You shoot the alloy guns enough and you're going to see marks on the aluminum, caused by the harder steel.

I saw and mentioned that there was what appeared to be a visible bit of leftover steel machining debris, forming a burr, on the bottom of the barrel chamber on one side, and then a bit of a running sharp edge visible on the other side of the barrel, along the outside edge. Things I'd dress with a few strokes of a red stone, to help prevent them from excessively digging into the top of the aluminum frame (any more than a non-burred surface would normally produce, like in the pics of the same area on my 4013TSW).

Well if you didn't find that coincidence curious, then tell us why you didn't find it curious.

I usually don't find something curious if it happens the way it can normally happen, especially when I've been told it often happens that way, and it's even been explained to me why it often happens that way. What's there to be suspicious about?

I've been told that the breech face/barrel tab dimension opens up over time due to the two surfaces pounding against each other during live-fire, too. Ought I be suspicious if I see it happens in some gun?

I've been told that the recoil forces generated by the continued use of +P and +P+ 9mm can/may, over enough time, cause the slide stop lever assembly to deform over time, with the lever body & pin relationship either increasing or decreasing from its original angle (90 degrees). We were told to keep an eye on that if we were issued +P and +P+ duty ammo, and if the deformation reached a point where it might cause different functioning issues, to adjust the angle. In those earlier classes they taught us how to adjust (restore) the 90 degree angle using a vise and a lead babbitt. (In later classes they decided to tell new armorers to just replace the whole assembly, rather then try to teach everyone in the class how to make subtle adjustments whacking things with a lead babbitt. ) It didn't seem at all suspicious when I saw that happen, and had to adjust a few slide stop levers over time.

Bottom line, it's not usually suspicious if an apple falls from an apple tree, due to gravity, right?

Relax.

[/QUOTE]

 

[18DAI]

JohnHL since you chose to publish my PM to you, you should have included the title as well - "Sour grapes much?"

I sent you the PM so as not to embarass you, here, publicly. But since you seem as set on embarrassing yourself as you are to find a problem with the pistol in question, have at it.

OP, please enjoy that fine pistol! And don't take the rest of the thread as an example of a regular occurence here. The majority here are not smarmy with the other more EXPERIENCED members, who go out of their way to help us and answer our questions.

Fastbolt and BMCM have taught me much and have helped many here. Myself included! Stick around and tell us how that 9mm TSW shoots for you. Regards 18DAI

 

[JohnHL]

Fastbolt, I'm curious (not suspicious) when I see what looks like damage on the right hand barrel lug of a pistol after I've been told that an S&W Repair Tech says damage is most likely to occur in that area.

And what could be more relaxing than sitting on the couch on a beautiful, 75 degree afternoon in the Foothills of the Ozarks, having a spirited conversation about 3rd gen firearm repair?

John

 

[GaryS]

Here are pictures from my 3913TSW. As you can see the barrel and lugs have just about no wear. I imagine this is how the the guns looked when they left the factory.







I field stripped, but did not photograph, my far more frequently shot pre rail 3913TSW. The only differences I noticed were a bit of "burring" on the frame lugs which from other pictures I've seen here is normal. Also, the rear edges of the feed ramp look a bit "polished" from contact with the side of the frame lugs. Other than that, they are not much different.

It would be a shame if this very good thread got locked and anyone got dinged over what seems to be a slight disagreement. If you know what I mean, and I think you do.

 

[GaryS]

It got to 45 today in my part of New England.

I hate you.

Fastbolt, I'm curious (not suspicious) when I see what looks like damage on the right hand barrel lug of a pistol after I've been told that an S&W Repair Tech says damage is most likely to occur in that area.

And what could be more relaxing than sitting on the couch on a beautiful, 75 degree afternoon in the Foothills of the Ozarks, having a spirited conversation about 3rd gen firearm repair?

John