H4227 And Powder Residue

[Cdog]

I've been handloading many years and just never had any reason to try the 4227's. Yea, I know the older powders were different and I have data for both.

The bottle I'm using was inherited about two years ago and is of the H variety. The bottle was sealed and it smells wonderful. The top loads for these two powders in .41 Mag seem to be fairly consistent, with starting loads varying a bit between the two.

Saturday I loaded 12 rounds for testing. 20.4 grains pushing firmly crimped 215gr Bayou coated bullets. I believe 21 grains was the published max in my Hodgdon's 26 manual. I chose this because I already have a Lee Auto Disc measure attached and this is the largest cavity without using the double disc or switching to the Auto Drum measure.

(I have a love affair with the Lee Auto Disc measures and powder through expansion system. I own at 6 or 8 of these measures that I leave setup on my most commonly used dies. The Double Disc kits have been replaced with the Auto Drum for calibers in the .454 Casull range. I've had questionable results with the adjustable charge bar, so I no longer use them.)

The 215gr Bayou shot point of aim with reduced recoil vs W296/H110, yet still enough oomph to be a magnum. Seems like just what I'd like. Yea, 2400 would likely be another alternative, but I don't have any and Alliant powders are as rare as hen's teeth in my area.

Primers look fine, easy ejection, but a lot of residue spread throughout the cylinder and barrel.

I want to like this powder. It meters well, yields good load density with the power level in the "Just Right" range. I don't guess the residue is anything more than an aggravation for the eyes. Doesn't take any longer to clean, just leaves a good reminder to do it.

Those of us that have been loading a while know Unique, Universal, and similar powders are most likely to leave residue when loaded well below max. This charge is about .5 grain below max. I doubt another half or full grain in this burn rate will make any significant change in residue.

I know with this bunch of guys and gals H4227 will be a well known powder by some.

Seasoned loaders with vast, varied experience is something I know I will find here.

Is the residue simply a characteristic of this powder?


PS: Sorry for the essay leading up to my question.

 

[cowboy4evr]

I have used 4227 for years , both " flavors " . I ALWAYS , Always , always use a " full magnum primer " ie: CCI 350 for lg pistol primer , CCI 550 for small pistol primer . This cleans up the residue pretty well . There will still be some though . My experience has been that it does better with max loads . Regards Paul

 

[Cdog]

I used CCI 350's in Starline brass.

I'm a true-blue believer in a firm crimp for magnum revolver loads.

Only change made is the powder.

 

[Just another 22 shooter]

I have used both of the 4227s and they both have the same characteristic of leaving some unburnt powder in the barrels of revolvers. Using a magnum primer is a must and in my experience, the closer I got to max, the cleaner the barrel. But even top end loads on 357 or 44 magnums left some residue in the barrels. And I agree with Cdog that the recoil seems to be a bit less than with other powders. On the other hand, IMR4227 is a top performer in my Marlin 1894 357 16" carbine; It consistently shoots the smallest groups and leaves no unburnt powder in the barrel.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

In all endeavors in life there are costs and benefits. With 4227 this is just the cost of doing business! The benefits have been and are, less recoil, fine accuracy, great metering, and less barrel erosion than 296.

4227 is THE powder of Shutzen and a few other sports!

Ivan

 

[boatbum101]

Good crimp , mag primer as stated above , top end of load data are needed for 4227's best . Won't be the fastest , but it'll be among the best accuracy wise .

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have used 4227 in 38 & 357 and even tried it in a 9mm, of all things.

It works a lot better with big heavy bullets but I look at this powder as a good powder
for the beginer, due to the low pressures and case fill, that makes for a safe learning load.

It's only fault, that I could find, was that it is dirty and leaves flakes all over the place
when it is used with light loads in 38 spl and 357 magnum with a standard primer.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

....
Those of us that have been loading a while know Unique, Universal, and similar powders are most likely to leave residue when loaded well below max. This charge is about .5 grain below max. I doubt another half or full grain in this burn rate will make any significant change in residue.
....

I disagree, the difference of .5gr to 1.0gr of powder can make all the difference in the world on how clean some of the older powders burn. That is just my observation, others may agree or disagree.

 

[Dfish1247]

IMR 4227 is my most accurate full throttle 41 mag powder using 215gf rmr jhps.

I love the low flash compared to 2400 and h110, I don't feel less recoil, just more of a push like black powder vs the sharp snap of h110.

Like 2400, start going down in charge weight, it is nasty. Mag primers do clean it up a little, but your going to clean after shooting, period.

 

[DWalt]

Back in the mid-1960s I began reloading for the .44 Mag, and IMR 4227 was the first propellant I used in that application. I don't remember anything unusual about it. Works OK in .30 Carbine also, but you cannot get enough in the .30 Carbine case to get a MV much more than around 1700 ft/sec. I do like to use IMR 4227 or H4227 with cast lead gas check bullets in rifle cases - .308, .300 Savage, .30-'06, gives ca. 2000 ft/sec MV.

 

[Cdog]

Thanks for all the replies. I figured it to be a trait of the powder, just wanted confirmation.

Accuracy is every bit as good as I can shoot with the best of others I've used. W296 is very clean, but it's always been an all or nothing powder for me. Although I do see data with lower charge weights listed now, I ain't too comfortable downloading W296/H110.

I've been working with LongShot, CFE Pistol, and a few others, but none of them have met that sweet spot I'm in search of. I'll bump up the dosage of 4227 a bit to see if there's noticeable difference.

Regardless of the outcome, I like the load I have and for now will tolerate the residue left behind.

 

[Protocall_Design]

I've been shooting 4227 in 44 Mag. for many years with 300 grn. bullets. It's the most accurate powder I've found for this load. I'm getting around 5 or 6 inch groups at 200 meters (218 yards) shooting DA with 8-3/8" barrel. Both IMR and Hogdon shoot to the same place. Not about to change.

 

[rockquarry]

I've never used the Hodgdon version but have used IMR4227 with good results. The two powders have to be very similar. I don't recall a residue or unburned powder with the IMR powder, but if I did and the load was accurate, I think that would be a small price to pay for good performance.

I've always found that cleanup is about the same whether a gun is a little dirty or real dirty.

 

[Nemo288]

4227 is not only slower than 2400 and 110/296, it has a "degressive burn factor" according to QuickLOAD.
This makes it much less prone to suddenly peaking pressure as you move up loads than those other powders mentioned especially 110/296.
I have only ever used the IMR version and it is a favorite in the supermag where pressures run even higher than the magnums.
It's also bulky enough and slow enough that I am not sure you can get enough into a magnum case with standard or heavy bullets to cause unsafe over-pressure.
Modeling 100-110% fill ratios in 44 magnum never reach full pressure.
This also leads to some unburned powder.
It's a great powder but almost too slow for the magnum revolver cartridges.
If you don't mind a little ash and a few flakes it shoots beautifully.
Up at 45kpsi it burns much cleaner in the supermag and larger cylindrical rifle cartridges.

 

[cmj8591]

4227 is my go to powder for the 500mag. Yes, it leaves a bit of residue behind. I also use it quite a bit in 44mag. It seems to be more efficient with longer barrels and is lights out accurate in my 44 carbines. Stick with magnum primers and a good, solid crimp and that will reduce the left behind residue.

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

IMR 4227 is my favorite powder for 44 cal: 21.6 gr. under a 250 gr LRN2R cast bullet is my favorite 44 mag load at 1193 ft/sec from a 6" barrel. I also like 13.2 gr under a 255 gr Keith bullet for a nice mild 767 ft/s plinker. Both loads are very accurate. I don't mind a mess as long as accuracy is good. Makes no difference to my wet tumbler how dirty the cases are.

 

[ironhead7544]

IMR 4227 was designed for pistol sized rifle cartridges. In revolvers, it will leave particles. It is possible to get enough of them under the S&W extractor to cause hard closing. Watch out for that.

IMR 4227 is Improved Military Rifle powder. It is flash suppressed with just a slight dull orange flash. H4227 seems to be the same but some manuals differ on loading charges.

It seems to burn cooler than the other high performance powders and does not wear the revolvers as much.

If the residue bothers you too much, switch to AA#9.

 

[Nemo288]

IMR 4227 was designed for pistol sized rifle cartridges. In revolvers, it will leave particles. It is possible to get enough of them under the S&W extractor to cause hard closing. Watch out for that.

I have had that happen with Unique as well.
For most mid-range magnum and full special loads I now use Universal instead as it burns cleaner.
Universal acts a little faster in my experience than Unique in revolver cartridges so backing off a couple of grains to start is always a good idea (as usual).

According to
Improved Military Rifle - Wikipedia
IMR-4227 was originally intended for rounds like .22 Hornet, 25-20, and 32-20 as you said.

 

[cowboy4evr]

I have used IMR 4227 for yrs in magnum hand gun loads . I do not back off on the charge weight . I fill the case till it touch's the base of the bullet or even slightly compressed and always use a full magnum primer .
My 44 magnum load , using the Keith bullet (H&G 503) is 23 grs . I have tried a little more powder but found 23 grs the best . I'm not saying this is how everyone should load 4227 . It just works for me . Regards Paul

 

[Nemo288]

That's pretty much my experience using 4227 in the 44 supermag.
After shooting many ladders using several bullets and IMR-4227,
I observed that the best loads were the ones that were very near 100% powder capacity.
I have tried a couple of other powders in the .445 but none have come
close to the accuracy and predictability of 4227.
It's also great in the big 444 with medium loads and lighter bullets.
When I had the chance, I stocked up.