Advice on S&W 500mag reloading

[thor250sx]

Hey guys,
I’ve been reloading smaller loads for awhile. This last year I took on my favorite hand gun the S&W 500. Now I started with 350gn XTP bullet, Starline brass, LRMP, and just starting load data following H110 powder. Round shoots very nice, cases don’t stick but I noticed my primers are getting a little flat and I’m already at the starting load. I’m not going crazy with a roll crimp, just enough to roll and pinch.

I noticed that hodgdon also listed a CFE BLK powder with lots of data for the 500. So I got some, hard part was finding exact cast bullets matching their data, but from a 375 gn cast bullet to a 440 gn cast bullet, there powder charge was pretty close, so I was trying to work up a load for 400gn and 420gn cast bullets I could get my hands on. This is the weird part, at there starting powder charge for a 440gn cast bullet, is 41.6 gn. That filled the case up a lot. I did find I backed it to 41gn and took a measurement, I could load the 420gn cast round to the crimp groove without compression of powder. I made 5 rounds, and tried them today, they shot very well, spent cases fell right out, but I noticed my primers are flat not much but little more than following the exact start load I listed above with H110. My question is can I back the round off a couple gn’s. ? Is that safe to do until I see normal edges of the primer again? Any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Many times what reloaders think is a flattened primer really isn't. Is it possible you can post a few pictures? True flattened will show no room between the primer and the brass, no sign of the rounded edge of the primers. Pictures would help a lot.

 

[Imissedagain]

As I've learned here, and in the archives as well, difficulty with case extraction is when you're getting too hot.

Check the archives with the screen name.... ruggyh.

Make sure those XTPs or all bullets are rated for the 500 velocities.
XTP Mags vs regular XTPs.
Trail Boss powder is good to keep around.

Most manuals have pictures of primer issues but the Super Magnums seem to flatten them with even mid-level or above loads.

We only have 460s.
Grips and DPP mount under construction.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I do not reload for the 500 S&W Magnum, but...

It is a revolver: you can usually lower pressure by simply loading longer or reducing the amount of powder. I'm unaware of any warnings associated with compressed loads using CFE-Black: as a matter of fact most of the Hodgdons MAX loads indicated compressed powder. I'm unaware of any warnings associated with loading less than these suggested START loads with CFE-Black either... Less powder will generate less velocity.

What exactly is it you are trying to accomplish: not compressing the powder and/or less flattening of the primers? Why? How do your past reloads compare with any factory ammunition?

As long as you are confident that your powder weights are accurate there is quite a bit of "wiggle room" between the pressures listed from the START to MAX loads in the Hodgdons data: their 440gr CFE-Black data shows your 41.6 gr @ 28,300 psi vs. a MAX of 49.0C (compressed)gr @ 36,600 psi. Their START load for that same bullet in H110 is OVER 40,000 psi!

10,000+ psi is a LOT of wiggle room, pressure-wise.

That favorite caliber you are loading is considerably different from your more familiar "smaller loads": loading at (or near?) the suggested START loads provided by the powder manufacturer should not really be a concern.

Hopefully other, much more experienced reloaders familiar with the 500 S&W Magnum will provide more and better advice.

Cheers!

 

[Sevens]

Reading primers is such an inexact science and leads so many to the wrong conclusions.

If you made two sets of loads…
Same brass, same bullet of same weight, same COAL, same crimp, same primer, fired from the same revolver on the same day and using the same powder but two different powder charge weights then now you can try to make some observations in what you think you see in how the primer looks, as for whether or not you think you see flattening.

If you are changing powders or brass or guns or primers… reading primers is most likely to lead you to wrong conclusions unless/until you blow a primer or the primer leaks.

 

[gwpercle]

Primer edges are not a great judge of pressure by and of themselves .
Sticky cases , hard extraction are a much better sign .
The big 500 and it's hefty powder charge develop a lot on pressure , normal for the 500 so the primers edges may very well be flattened a bit and nothing be amiss . Your " spent cases fell right out" says you are not over pressure and probably right about where you want to be with a good accurate safe load .
Don't get all worried about the primer edges ... case extraction is more telling and needs to be taken into consideration .
Gary

 

[thor250sx]

Thank guys, I will try and get some pictures when I get a chance. My goal that was asked? I noticed with the CFE blk, all of the rounds listed were very close in starting loads to max loads for a wide range of bullets. Having a hard time getting exact bullets, trying to work up loads with what I can get. Which was the 400-420gn cast rounds. Another thing I liked on the pressure chart for CFE, was higher velocity with lower pressure, I figured that would be a more safe way to adjust my loads then with more touchy powders.

 

[Funflyer]

I reload a lot for my 500 and there's rarely a day I go to the range without it. I use nine different powders and four different bullets, from 325gn to 500gn. Most loads are typically around the start charge weight with the exception of CFE-BLK which I try to get as close to max as I can since pressures are far under max at a full charge. None have ever been difficult to eject and primers all look about the same with squared edges that some may believe are "flat" from over-pressure. This is perfectly normal and nothing to worry about.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

In bottle neck RIFLE cases, flat primers are an indication of high pressure OR bad headspace. Don't use these criteria on Magnum handgun rounds.

In 44 mag with heavy bullets, a brass-colored primer can be hard to find the edge of, that often means you got to where you burnt all the H-110/WW-296!

BEWARE OF STICKING CASES!!!

Ivan

 

[STORMINORMAN]

It is not necessary to find or use the "exact bullet" that is listed in the various load data.

For instance, any 38 caliber 158gr JHP is pretty much the same as any other: certainly not enough difference at starting load levels to worry about. Same with a 9mm 115gr LRN. Different 44 caliber LSWCs may vary in design but a 200gr is a 200gr at a starting load and OAL.

In rifle cases and pistol calibers with large powder volumes 5gr more bullet or a couple 0.001" longer doesn't change things enough to matter. At or near starting levels...

Cheers!

 

[Lowa]

10% rule. Reduce a load by 10% of published data and work up. Everybody tends to have their pet loads by eyeballing data and working up. Half of the data I see has no start and max loads, just the individual load itself.

I personally use longshot for it's economy. About 20gr under a 275-325 grain jacketed bullet. I have it written down somewhere. Good recoil and excellent accuracy from my 4".

All data I have seen with BLK shows that it is the bees knees for 500 and I can never find any to try. It is a very flexible powder and always fills the case or is compressed. It seems very safe for making custom loads.

Notice that all the 500 data is 55k psi or lower. Your gun and the saami specs are rated at 65k

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You don't need the "exact same bullet" to use the load data. All you need is a similar profile, the same bullet weight and made of the same material. (Lead =lead, FMJ= FMJ)

 

[thor250sx]

If the picture loads, this was 41gn of CFE BLK with a 420gn cast bullet and WLRM. Does anyone find it odd that it flattened my primer more than H110? Now the data shows I could go up to 49gn compressed with a 440gn cast and pressure should max at 36,600. When I loaded this 41gn CFE the 420gn bullet is just hitting the powder. So I’m not compressed, And if the next pic loads I’ll show you how much more the primer is flattened with a h110 load at 41,500 pressure. COAL is hard for me to determine because I have no data to go on for a 420gn bullet, I used its crimp groove, I did read one of you guys comment about bringing the bullet out? Bring down pressure? Anyone ever see a difference with doing anything like that. I’m not talking on drastic levels just curious. I’m taking in all the feed back like a sponge. Love learning from experience. Does anyone have a fun load they have already put together they don’t mind sharing? Another bullet I’m trying next is a 400gn HI tek coated #18 hardness bullet from Missouri bullet company.

 

[steelslaver]

Remember in a rifle there is very little headspace and the case will have hardly any rearwards movement. On a revolver you must have some more headspace than a rifle for the cylinder to turn freely. .002 is about max head space on a rifle and near min on a revolver and max is about .009. Rifles have some form of cam action to help close up. On a revolver you only have you trigger finger and the leverage of the hand pivot. When the firing pin strikes the primer it drives the case fully forward and the resulting explosion causes it to be slammed back against the recoils shield. The momentum from this movement caused the case head to strike harder than if there if there is almost zero movement and it is just pressed against a bolt face. Plus, 460 and 500 are made to fire up to 60,000 psi, the same as magnum rifles where 357 and 44 mags top out at 36,000 psi. BIG difference. A mild 460 or 500 primer should look like a max load in a 44 mag

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Well, the location of the crimp groove on two different bullets can surely make a difference in their OALs... Especially if they are different designs!

But the point is more about how much of the bullet is in the case?

Of course loading longer reduces pressure, everything else being the same.

Typically, the START load for a heavier bullet of the same material and profile will be a safe START for a lighter bullet: i.e., you could reasonably use that 440gr data for a 420gr of the same material and profile. But that's ONLY a "start": where is it you actually need to go?

Paper can't much tell the difference between velocities and energy.

Cheers!

P.S. Just because the data says you "can go to 49gn (?) compressed with a 440gn cast" doesn't mean you need to or that you should: what are you reloading for? More specifically, what are your goals? Game, targets, plinking(?)...!

 

[Nevada Ed]

Take the average joe blow or starting loader and have them load ten loads
with the same bullet, same crimp & OAL, with the same powder and it's amount
into 30 cases................

then add a federal, CCI and winchester standard primer to the three test
and you tell me if............

reading a primer will tell you what the pressures are in your revolver.

Most loads will have a 20-70fps difference in ten loads with all the very slight weights and differences, that take place with the components.

Some revolvers can go 105% but I have had a few that say, "Cut it out" at only a 97% load.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

And if you don't have a chronograph...

How would you ever know the difference?

Cheers!

P.S. What won't a 400gr hardcast LFN travelling at a mere, say 1,500fps, do...?

 

[cmj8591]

Steelslaver hit the nail on the head. Every load I've ever made for my 500 ends up with flat primers. If the cases stick, that can be a sign of over pressure. If the gun is binding up when you pull the trigger or cock the hammer, that can be a sign. If the primers are pierced, that can also be a sign and it's time to back off your load. Those primers in your photo are nothing to worry about. So long as it's shooting well, I'd stick with that load.

 

[thor250sx]

I grew up shooting with my old man, he past away 10 years ago. I used to watch him load and get us ready for matches. One of those things I’d always ask questions, how do you remember all this stuff. One of those guys that molded, sized, spent hours at a range with each round. I Started getting into other sports. Never realizing I’d be reading his notes, finishing rounds he started. Always think you got time. He used to pick on me for wanting a 500. Lol I don’t even know why I wanted one, but after getting it fell in love with it. And now I’m trying different rounds out, mostly for fun. As soon as the weather starts getting little nicer, I will set up the chrony and see what rounds I have put together work the best for each objective. I still get little nervous with trying new stuff. Been reading a lot of old load books. Every time I buy a new book thinking I’ll get some info it’s a little bit of a let down. Today’s market like pulling teeth getting a hold of powders I want to try out.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Shooting the 500 S&W Magnum made hickok45 plenty nervous...

It is also a good caliber to be a bit nervous when reloading for as well!

So, you need not feel like the Lone Ranger!

Good Luck!

Cheers!