The Russians have gone in

[Absalom]

So you'd be willing to blow up the world over U frigging Kraine!?! A border dispute from two feuding former USSR members. Yeesh.

A NUCLEAR WAR? Dude, don't go into military planning. That's all I can say. Some of you people have flipped your lid.

Try not to sound too much like Alex Jones. You're tipping your hand here. Since you posted that Richardson video, I understand your agenda. No point in engaging.

 

[UncleEd]

Questions back: Should
the West allow Mr. Putin
to do whatever he wants?
And at what point should
the West, i.e. the US and
NATO draw a "red line?"

Smithra_66, early on I
asked these questions of
you so a discussion could
actually be started as to
what in depth you do
believe. You may have
a convincing and sound
position.

You brushed them aside
as being "from out of
left field." Why?

 

[smithman 10]

On a partion of Ukraine at war's end

I don't know if I would call it "likely" at this point, but the above scenario is certainly possible...and that bothers me for several reasons.

First, I don't think Putin's thuggery should be rewarded, and ceding Crimea to him, and acknowledging the eastern provinces as independent, would effectively do just that. (It would be like letting a bank robber who's killed people during the robbery keep the loot he stole.) It would send a terrible message to the world's autocrats and dictators.

The second problem such a solution would present is: What does the West do about the sanctions it imposed? Discontinue them? Keep them in place? At what point would this conflict Putin started be considered ended?

Thirdly, how can Putin be held accountable if the war ends in such a manner? And who will be responsible for rebuilding the cities the Russians have destroyed?

Putin needs to be driven out of Ukraine, then charged, tried, convicted, and condemned as a war criminal. He needs to be permanently ostracized from the community of nations. Russia, as a country, needs to pay for what it did to Ukraine. I realize that's an unlikely, best-case scenario...but anything less will leave a very bitter taste in my mouth.

I don't like the idea of a partition of Ukraine at all either, I just think it might happen. I'd much rather see Putin defeated and driven from office.

But a rational (if he is rational) Putin might be able to sell such a partition to his people as a victory and then start scheming on his next moves as he rebuilds his battered military.

Ukraine and NATO could say, well, at least Ukraine is still a sovereign nation, even if reduced in size.

Your very valid questions are right on point. I don't have a clue as to the answers. As I said, I hope Putin can be defeated but I'm not sure that is possible without real NATO intervention, which seems quite unlikely.

 

[biku324]

Putin can get nothing from this war or he'll try it again.

 

[Rudi]

I've heard some talk about a DMZ and divided Ukraine. Don't know why putin would go for that.

 

[Absalom]

I don't like the idea of a partition of Ukraine at all either, I just think it might happen. I'd much rather see Putin defeated and driven from office.
…..
As I said, I hope Putin can be defeated but I'm not sure that is possible without real NATO intervention, which seems quite unlikely.

I think we all would ideally like to see actual victory for the Ukrainians, and the ruin of Putin along with his army.

Not to overuse historical analogy, but the last time major powers were actually defeated to the point of signing a capitulation was at the end of WW II.

And that gets ugly. Germany's defeat was a foregone conclusion from the summer of 1944, with the simultaneous D-Day landings in the West and the collapse of Army Group Centre in Russia. Yet that last year of defeating the Nazis until May 1945 killed more Europeans than the five years of war before. And without nukes. The Nazis didn't even dare use any of their chemical weapons, of which they had significant quantities.

And as irritating as some posts here have been, one valid point was made: In the face of a nuclear-armed Putin NATO will not go to war in Ukraine to throw the Russians out, and Ukrainian and NATO tanks will never roll into Moscow and smoke out Putin from his bunker.

So whatever outcome will not be very satisfying. Unless something happens internally in Russia, which looks unlikely at the moment, Putin will be left standing, and even get away with some things. To keep those things as small as possible compared to his actual goals is the best we and the Ukrainians can hope for.

 

[LCC]

Time for Putin to catch the 'Russian Flu' in the form of a 7.62.
Is there a single ram among the herd of sheep over there?

 

[UncleEd]

Time for Putin to catch the 'Russian Flu' in the form of a 7.62.
Is there a single ram among the herd of sheep over there?

I think he would be more
likely to have a bad egg
with his porridge in the
morning.

Less messy and more easily
explained away by those
who might succeed him.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Interesting article about front-line Ukrainian troops, and how much Putin's continuing war in Donbass had prepared them for this invasion.


BBC News - Defiant Ukrainian troops tell Russians: 'Go home while you're still alive'
Defiant Ukrainian troops tell Russians: '''Go home while you'''re still alive''' - BBC News

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[moralem]

So you'd be willing to blow up the world over U frigging Kraine!?! A border dispute from two feuding former USSR members. Yeesh.

A NUCLEAR WAR? Dude, don't go into military planning. That's all I can say. Some of you people have flipped your lid.

The world is full of crazy people we here are no different……lots of people make stupid decisions…..going to war on any level is no different…..the arms we fight wars with have changed, but not the mentality as to why we war…….I can't change anything so I don't worry…….I do pray.

 

[ladder13]

Slovenian PM, "dying is dying, whether chemical weapons or other means".
Wise man.

 

[dockmurgw]

Here's the contribution from our little piece of the world.

VSP Press Releases: Update: Vermont State Police collects 3 tons of body armor for Ukraine

 

[Rustyt1953]

Ivanka sent 1 million meals (158,400 pounds) to the Ukraine and to Ukrainian refugees in Poland.

Mostly crickets from MSM.

 

[cmj8591]

So you'd be willing to blow up the world over U frigging Kraine!?! A border dispute from two feuding former USSR members. Yeesh.

A NUCLEAR WAR? Dude, don't go into military planning. That's all I can say. Some of you people have flipped your lid.

I'm thinking it's the appeasers who have flipped their lid. All I can say is that all of this anti-bullying nonsense that they have been pushing has made us weak and venerable. Do you honestly think that you can negotiate Putin away? No one wants to blow up the world but the only thing that assures that mutual destruction works as a deterrent is that everyone is willing to blow up the world. If you tell the bully that you are not going to fight, you are either going to get a beating or live under the bullies rules or both. That is why we are posting about this right now. Because Putin knew that the only opposition to his invasion was what Ukraine could mount on their own. Do you think he would have gone in if he was unsure weather or not a united NATO army would oppose him? The Russians are not stupid. Do you think they would have gone marching across those flats and lined up like ducks on the road if they thought their armor would have had to deal with western air power? In order to have the will to win, you first have to have the will to fight. Lots of time the will to fight keeps you from having to fight. That theorem is in full display right now.

 

[bigwheelzip]

Reported death today of Russian General Yakov Ryezantsev, said to lead the 49th Division, was killed in Chornobaivka, just north of Kherson, a site of intense fighting.
The 7th general taken out by Ukraine.

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[Protocall_Design]

Maybe Putin is just cleaning house and getting rid of his unwanted staff in an acceptable way?

 

[tlawler]

Reported death today of Russian General Yakov Ryezantsev, said to lead the 49th Division, was killed in Chornobaivka, just north of Kherson, a site of intense fighting.
The 7th general taken out by Ukraine.

Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

And another one gone, and another one gone, another one bites the dust!

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE[/ame]

 

[smithman 10]

Just saw this on RFE

Maybe Russians preparing to scale back their goals and declare a qualified "victory."

Russian Military Official Shifts Rhetoric, Says Army Now Focusing On 'Liberation' Of Eastern Ukrainian Regions

 

[dockmurgw]

I also read that a high ranking russian officer was killed by his own forces...waiting to see the details on that one.

Russian troops attack own commanding officer after suffering heavy losses

 

[dockmurgw]

Reported death today of Russian General Yakov Ryezantsev, said to lead the 49th Division, was killed in Chornobaivka, just north of Kherson, a site of intense fighting.
The 7th general taken out by Ukraine.

Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

Maybe if they ditched the gawdy hero of the motherland medals their chances of survival would improve.