Fun with hot 110 gr .38 Special loadings

[.455_Hunter]

So, I was looking at this article...

The 38 Special +P+ Treasury Load - Shooting Times

I have quite a bit of both the Winchester factory Treasury load, and the Colt Defense load sold fairly recently at Sportsman's Warehouse (loaded by DoubleTap).

From limited shooting I knew the DT Colt was "warmish", but the following chronograph data in the article was suprising:

DoubleTap Colt Defense .38 Special (no +P or +P+ markings) 110 gr JHP = 1153 fps (4"), 1033 fps (2.1"), 965 fps (1.9")

Winchester Ranger .38 Special (+P+) 110 gr JHP = 1162 fps (4"), 1055 fps (2.1"), 962 fps (1.9")

I know quite a bit on internal ballistic science, and get that different powder types have different performance/pressure curves. However- How in the world do you get essentially duplicate ballistics with the Ranger, theoretically operating above 20K psi (maybe 22.5K?), and the DT Colt, theoretically operating below 17.5K psi?

Is the marketing on the load rating on one or both incorrect?

Thanks!

Hunter

 

[rockquarry]

So, I was looking at this article...

The 38 Special +P+ Treasury Load - Shooting Times

I have quite a bit of both the Winchester factory Treasury load, and the Colt Defense load sold fairly recently at Sportsman's Warehouse (loaded by DoubleTap).

From limited shooting I knew the DT Colt was "warmish", but the following chronograph data in the article was suprising:

DoubleTap Colt Defense .38 Special (no +P or +P+ markings) 110 gr JHP = 1153 fps (4"), 1033 fps (2.1"), 965 fps (1.9")

Winchester Ranger .38 Special (+P+) 110 gr JHP = 1162 fps (4"), 1055 fps (2.1"), 962 fps (1.9")

I know quite a bit on internal ballistic science, and get that different powder types have different performance/pressure curves. However- How in the world do you get essentially duplicate ballistics with the Ranger, theoretically operating above 20K psi (maybe 22.5K?), and the DT Colt, theoretically operating below 17.5K psi?

Is the marketing on the load rating on one or both incorrect?

Thanks!

Hunter

I'm not knowledgeable on pressure curves or internal ballistic science. It may not answer your questions precisely, but if you'll refer to Hodgdon or Sierra handloading manuals (and maybe others), I think their data will at least duplicate the loads you describe and at safe SAAMI spec levels with a variety of powders; no tricks or marketing magic involved. Good luck-

 

[.455_Hunter]

I'm not knowledgeable on pressure curves or internal ballistic science. It may not answer your questions precisely, but if you'll refer to Hodgdon or Sierra handloading manuals (and maybe others), I think their data will at least duplicate the loads you describe and at safe SAAMI spec levels with a variety of powders; no tricks or marketing magic involved. Good luck-

So the Winchester factory loading extends into the +P+ regime "just because"?

 

[Nevada Ed]

Yes, that is one of the good old threads, that should be on everyone's bucket list to read.

The old Treasery, super-vel and Cor-bon loads were developed for the K frames back in the day to
get away from bad press, that the LE was shooting the BG's with "Magnum ammo".

Yes, it was "Hot" but very safe in the K frames.

A lot depends on what powders are used, as to how high the pressures were in those loads.

With todays powders, I can get my little M49 snub nose "J" frame to kick out a
110 gr, Gold Dot at 996fps, that is safe with moderate use.

However, I prefer the 135 GD or the Federal micro 130 HST for SD use,
since they are actually easier on the J frame.

 

[rockquarry]

So the Winchester factory loading extends into the +P+ regime "just because"?

You lost me. What is the question?

 

[Nevada Ed]

So the Winchester factory loading extends into the +P+ regime "just because"?

Just because they think that that fps is in the +P+ range.......

which, it is not.
Who knows........ maybe they ment it, in pressure ??

When I saw their ammo listed on Lucky Gunner as +P+ ammo,
I almost pucked.......
but that extra (+) will probably bring in another $10-20 in sales,
they are hoping?

The Hornady 110 +P is rated at 945fps out of a 2" barrel.
Winchester states their Ranger at 27fps faster, makes it a +P+.

 

[Inusuit]

Pucked? As in hockey?

 

[.455_Hunter]

You lost me. What is the question?

It just seems amiss that one manufacturer would require +P+ pressure to achieve the same velocity as another manufacturer with standard pressure.

That's quite a bit of variance, unless there actually isn't much variance.

 

[Rlg#17]

The problem is really that there are no specifications for a +p+ rounds published as accepted by SAMMI. Soooooo, manufacturer R can say their round is +p+. Manufacturer WW can claim their round is +p+, and so on. I am fortunate to have some of the LEO only marked +p+ 147 grain hydra-shoks in 38 Special!

Spectacular to say the least. As I recall we tested them and they came in @1350pfs out of a 4" revolver. My 2.5" magnaport model 19 custom was just over 1300 fps. Not bad out of a snubby. For sure not correct for an early J frame. I cannot imagine what it would feel like in an airlite…. I believe I'm down to my last 5 boxes of it. Enough for our lifetime for sure.

Regards,
Rick Gibbs

 

[rockquarry]

I refer back to my original comment. The velocity figures you quote can be equalled or exceeded safely with current load data that is within SAAMI specs with a variety of powders. Ammo makers can do the same and could when this ammo was produced. Does it matter? That's not a flippant question.

There was an excellent article in HANDLOADER magazine in 1970 (well before the +P designation) where various warm factory .38 Special loads were pressure tested by Lee Jurras in his Super Vel lab. The article was two parts, the second being the duplication with handloads of some of the factory loads.

The hottest was Norma's 110 grain load with a pressure far exceeding the "Treasury" loads you make reference to. I think Norma was around 27,000, followed by a Remington 110 load (I'd have to look up the pressure figure on that one), and then came the Super Vel 110 at around 20,000 or maybe 21,000. I'd have to re-read the article for the rest.

If you were shooting then, you may recall that if a revolver had .38 Special marked on the barrel and the ammo box also had a .38 Special designation, no one questioned the suitability of the ammo for the gun. I never heard of gun blowups or damage and many of us fired the hot factory ammo in our J-frame .38s. Of course all that changed, at least in theory, with the +P designation.

 

[.455_Hunter]

If you were shooting then...

Not in 1970- I was a wee lad of negative 6 years.

So do you think if we put a round of the Winchester and a round of the DT into a test barrel fitted with a PCB gauge that we would see a similar pressure profile? Both rounds are post-2010 production, so not something from the earlier era.

 

[rockquarry]

Not in 1970- I was a wee lad of negative 6 years.

So do you think if we put a round of the Winchester and a round of the DT into a test barrel fitted with a PCB gauge that we would see a similar pressure profile? Both rounds are post-2010 production, so not something from the earlier era.

I don't know.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Hay, if you like a 110 JHP or a smaller 90 gr pill in your 38 for SD use.......... fine with me, but..........

in my M49 with a 125 gr, Gold dot I found it to penetrate 3 milk jugs and stop at the back of a partical board, "un-expanded" and ready to load again.

HOT or slow...............

you just have to check out the ammo that you use.........
to make sure it can preform with best results, if used for sd ammo.

The 38 special can do the job, if you just make sure of the ammo used
and your ability to put it on target.

 

[stanmerrell]

If you ask 3 different people a question you will likely get three different answers. I think that's all that is going on here. Thanks for the link to the article. It's a good read. I never really went for the light bullet, expansion, low penetration, concept. I prefer to punch a hole all the way through and hope for the best. Forget about expansion, it doesn't always happen because of clothing, velocity, and other variables. Peeps like cover too walls, cars, etc.

 

[Buford57]

"The Winchester spec sheet also indicates a velocity of 990 fps fired from a S&W Model 15 with a 20 inch barrel". That had to be a special order.

I "inherited" several boxes of their Federal 110 gr stuff from DEA at one point. I don't have a chrono but recoil and muzzle flash was similar to the Norma 110 gr. HPs.