A CASE FOR SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING

[Trooper Joe]

A CASE FOR SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING

When I joined the Michigan State Police in 1966, we were trained to shoot our Smith and Wesson revolvers (both K and J frame models) in single action mode only. We used standard bullseye targets in the “Camp Perry” style course of fire.

(All troopers were issued the heavy barrel model 10)



(Starting in the late 70’s, if you shot distinguished expert, you were issued a model 67 with the State Police logo on it.)



About 1969, we started to transition to “combat style”, double action shooting. However, they actually trained us to use a sort of staging method of trigger control for increased accuracy. In a very short time, and after a number of accidental discharges using this staging method, they transitioned to a consistent complete double action trigger pull with out staging. The also stressed the “double tap” style of shooting at a threat.

My daughter joined the State Police in 1987 and that time they were training to never use single action style shooting with the still being used revolvers. In 1989, MSP transitioned to Sig Sauer 226 9mm da/sa and stressed to not use the single action for the first shot (several ad’s occurred with the old time Troopers cocking the hammers of their 229’s like they were used to with their revolvers).

After being retired for many years (since 1989) I am really having a problem with this insistence on double action shooting only with both modern and older double action revolvers. (My daughter still cringes when she sees me using a revolver in a single action mode. However, she just admitted to me that when she qualified with the off duty gun issued in the 90’s which was one of the hammerless S&W J frames, she stagged the trigger to get a perfect score.)

I just watched a video about one of the new S&W Classic model 19’s. This gun has fantastic target, adjustable sights which are about useless with double action shooting. The presenter admitted that he could get much better groups using the single action mode and seemed clueless why he couldn’t do it in double action.

I submit that all single/double action revolvers should be shot single action unless you need to get off a fast round for defense at a close distance. If you are pointing your revolver at a threat to get him to stand down, then of course it should not be cocked.

If you are using your sights, I assume that the threat is no longer at a close distance and now you should be using the single action mode for accuracy.

These presenters on various videos about single/double action revolvers complain that revolvers would not be their first choice for concealed carry primarily since they only hold 6 (or 5) rounds. I believe they should loose the “spray and pray” mentality of most modern shooters and get back to basic accuracy concepts we embraced when I came into police work.

Just some thoughts

Trooper Joe

 

[rockquarry]

Good points, indeed, Trooper Joe. Some of us see a need to improve shooting skills as we shoot at paper targets most of the time rather than practicing gunfighting and self-defense; the latter really gets boring after a while, but it's good to do it occasionally.

Single-action Bullseye style shooting at 25 yards or more using good technique will certainly help a shooter in improving skills, though it doesn't happen overnight, much to the dismay of the "want it right now" folks.

 

[Trooper Joe]

The problem with SA for police use is that it starts a decision tree that makes you have to decide if you are likely to shoot or not, what to do when the threat is decreased (no decocker), and the fact that you may have to transition from SA back to DA if the fight doesn't go the way you want. Having to think about the condition of your trigger is not something that will help you fight when you have other things demanding your attention.

However, the Japanese police all practice SA as the normal way to deploy their S&W DA revolvers to this day. For much of the 20th century, manually cocking your DA revolver, SA auto or even DA/SA auto was very normal. In modern times, hammers shrank and NDs became more of a problem worth paying attention to. Plus, many practitioners of the DA revolver have demonstrated that you can shoot the same score with DA as SA.


Which brings us to today, where everyone is carrying essentially Condition Zero autos - Glocks with 5.5 lbs trigger pulls and no safety.

Interesting comments.

1) I would like to meet the person who can score 300 on a Camp Perry course. If their is, there would certainly not be many.

2) I remember a number of times lowering the hammer on my revolver from the cocked single action mode to the ready/at rest double action mode with out a problem or “decocker”.

3) Why does S&W put such a fantastic single action mode on their modern (especially “Classic”) models if single action should not be used.

4) I am seeing presenters on some of these videos using double action at hunting distances with their revolvers. I submit they should be using the single action mode in these cases.

Trooper Joe

 

[heeter3]

I only own revolvers and only one of my eleven is d/a only.I still shoot all of the rest d/a,s/a, combat,strong hand and weak hand on a monthly rotating basis.The variation that they allow is a joy unto itself and I really will never know what method will be appropriate until God forbid I am forced to make that decision.

 

[Heinz]

I consistently practice with both double action and single action on my revolvers and on my double action automatics.

I have no problem with the transition, although I am more accurate in SA.
I have no problem with lowering the hammer on the Model 19 or M17, 1917, or the Ruger single six for that matter. I also have no problem with lowering the hammer on a single action automatic with a hammer.

I think mastering the transition is just a matter of practice.
I do not own a DA only gun myself. I do own a number of early striker fired automatics and concealed hammer automatics .They are essential "single action" because they are always cocked. I carry those on an empty chamber.

Would not carry a Colt 1911 "cocked and locked". But I do not care if you do, if you are competent and confident with it.

As to police officers needing to decide wether or not to fire at a person, that "decision tree" starts several steps before they point a gun at someone, I believe. They train to make those decisions and how to handle their weapon. And they are very good at it.

 

[M29since14]

I tend to agree with the OP, but being a member of the Over The Hill Gang, I guess my views are antiquated. (Or at least I’m sure there will be a long line of people willing and anxious to tell me that. ) I’ve never been a police officer but I’ve observed over the last five-plus decades. For a time, it seemed like there was a noticeable interest in increasing marksmanship and gun handling skills, mainly during the mid-70s through the late-80s. Then along came autoloaders and it seemed the interest in marksmanship decreased proportionately as each succeeding generation of weapons held more, smaller cartridges. Someone once said, “The object of all shooting should be hitting!”

 

[Old cop]

Started my career in ‘68 w/a Colt Official Police. Our training was bulls-eye and single action was only employed from the 50 yard line. Everything else was shot double action. I recall one officer managed to get his Model 15 into single action mode on a call and was not sure how to make it safe. I showed him “how” on that call and he left the department for another line of work shortly after that.

 

[rct269]

I have been practicing rapid double action "Point and Shoot" diligently for several years at very close range (10-15 yards) with a 1920 vintage S&W M&P revolver----the only fixed sight revolver I own. This is shooting at silhouette type targets----no aiming (per se) involved-----------and the double action trigger pull doesn't even approach "fairly firm". It isn't even a little bit firm---compliments of a Jerry Miculek Spring Kit. I got rather good rather quickly----which is to say I hit what I'm shooting at almost without exception--------at silhouette type targets----center mass.

Now, you put me in front of Bullseye targets at 25 and 50 yards, double action is not my cup of tea, and neither are fixed sights!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rockquarry]

Police officers often start pointing guns at people long before there has been an established threat.

Please illustrate some examples of this based on your reasonable amount of experience, law enforcement or otherwise.

 

[rockquarry]

Some double-action shooters may shoot better than skilled single-action shooters, but these very proficient double-action shooters are certainly among the very best shooters of all, indeed a very small percentage overall.

 

[SLT223]

I think it depends how you train and what you're looking to accomplish. For many years I shot all revolvers single action only, and never really understood or cared for the double action feature (I'm a civilian and a hobbyist). Then in 2013 I got into reloading. All of the sudden I found myself paying for range time to develop loads and once accomplished, I had .30 Cal ammo cans full of handloads. Single action simply became too slow for the volume of shooting I was trying to do in one hour, or so. Before long I was shooting 99% double action. I now shoot better double action than single. Below is target I shot after a 6 month hiatus.

158's at about 1000fps from a S&W 620 at 10 yards...no staging...there's nothing really to stage off of with that guns trigger anyhow. Note: I cannot readily replicate this now single action. I'm sure I could if I dedicated time, but my muscle memory and grip is now set for double action.

Edit: I misread the quote I quoted. Whoops!

 

[Trooper Joe]

WOW - Great responses.

For full disclosure, I was on the Lansing, Michigan police department for 7 months before I joined the State Police. There we were trained in a sort of “Combat Shooting” double action method with our 5” Colt revolvers. We were trained to start the trigger pull and complete it without staging or hesitating. We were also trained to focus on the front sight and to hold it over our target even if the target was blurry. This worked very well and when MSP switched to double action shooting, I did not have a problem even though MSP did not emphasize front site acquisition.

This last story seemed to indicate that some manufacturers may have focused on the reliability of single action and put efforts in the double action mode as a secondary concern.

I was in about three years when my partner and I flushed some runners from a building break in. I did not want to shoot them even though B&E was a felony. I attempted to fire a round in the air (I am sure this was against department regs), double action, and the gun did not fire (index or something was off). Sent the gun in for repair and all was well after that.

To this day, I still occasionally find that the double action mode on some revolvers doesn’t seem to be as positive as the single action method.

I agree that double action should probably be used for close range encounters. However, if the distance is greater and especially if you are enjoying some cover, I would find myself using the single action mode.

I just feel that some “experts” are suggesting that even in non defense types of situation ( maybe 20 yards plus, hunting scenario’s) that double action is the only way to properly use a da/SA revolver.

Trooper Joe

 

[rockquarry]

SLT223- Good shooting, but do this at 25 yards. Any shooter shortcomings are far more evident as distance increases and 25 yards isn't really very far. Good luck in your shooting endeavors.

 

[Sevens]

I love and enjoy handguns possibly as much as anyone and while I do carry one concealed as often as possible and I do regular practice with exactly that handgun, defensive and survival gunfight practice is just a tiny slice of how I enjoy handguns.

I have numerous revolvers and love ‘em. I do the bulk of my revolver shooting on 6-inch to 8-inch steel plates from 12-15 yards. For this kind of shooting, the skill is making the hit and quickly finding the next target and making that hit also.

Double action rules the roost here, and it’s not just for speed, it’s for not having to alter you grip on the revolver even one little bit. Not my strong hand nor my support hand come out of place to cock a hammer — my trigger finger handles that task smoothly.

For me, shooting almost always double action is much more about a comfortable and repeatable grip on the revolver.

My old school PPC revolvers don’t even have the capability to shoot single action.

When the big .460 Magnum XVR comes out, that’s single action exclusively. I don’t know if I’ve ever fired that cannon in double action.

 

[rockquarry]

Aside from my wife's experience at a zero threat traffic stop of having the second officer at low ready:

https://www.aele.org/law/2010all10/2010-10MLJ101.pdf

KUOW - For King County cops, pointing a weapon at someone will soon be considered 'use of force,' settlement says

Woman's Video Of Police Aiming Guns At Kneeling Man Goes Viral | HuffPost Communities

Police Held Black Teens At Gunpoint After They Were Chased By Man With Knife - Essence

Virginia Investigating Pepper-Spraying Of Army Officer Caron Nazario : NPR

https://nypost.com/2020/06/04/california-dad-wants-cop-fired-for-pointing-gun-at-his-toddler-son/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ren-video-choking-el-paso-texas-a8440171.html

Whether you agree with what these officers were doing or not, none of these people were clear threats and all of them would have been in greater danger if the gun had been a cocked revolver.

I thought you were referring to actual experience, not YouTube-type material.

 

[Trooper Joe]

I think I just discovered the mystery (after 50+ years) of the double action mis-fire. I was carrying hand loads at that time and I bet I had a slightly high primer. I was using military brass which if I remember right had some tight primer pockets.

When I used single action, my model 10 was hitting them harder than when it was using double action and the gun would fire.

For everyone’s comfort, I don’t hand load any more .

Trooper Joe

 

[rockquarry]

So news pieces featuring actual video of officers is "youtube material"?

I guess that claiming I saw something once would be better evidence than a video, right?

Relax. I assumed from your first post on the matter that you must have had actual experience to make such an assuredly blatant comment. That apparently wasn't the case. Certainly not worth argument.

 

[Bumpus13]

I think this is it. It depends how you train and what you're looking to accomplish. For many years I shot all revolvers single action only, and never really understood or cared for the double action feature (I'm a civilian and a hobbyist). Then in 2013 I got into reloading. All of the sudden I found myself paying for range time to develop loads and once accomplished, I had .30 Cal ammo cans full of handloads. Single action simply became too slow for the volume of shooting I was trying to do in one hour, or so. Before long I was shooting 99% double action. I now shoot better double action than single. Below is target I shot after a 6 month hiatus.

158's at about 1000fps from a S&W 620 at 10 yards...no staging...there's nothing really to stage off of with that guns trigger anyhow. Note: I cannot readily replicate this now single action. I'm sure I could if I dedicated time, but my muscle memory and grip is now set for double action.

Very similar situation here.

I also used to ONLY fire my revolvers in SA. Got pretty good too.

Then somewhere around 2018 I started working much more exclusively on DA firing.

Now, I’m better firing in DA than I am SA. Noticeably better.

It also seems smarter to me. After all, I may not always have time to cock a hammer - if I’m not used to doing it, there’ll be less hesitation in a time of need. Being used to the heavier/longer DA trigger also comes in handy with my DA/SA auto loaders - the all important 1st shot is far from a foreign sensation for my trigger finger.

But to each their own. If the OP prefers using SA, who am I to tell him otherwise?

 

[Marshal Tom]

Oh boy! As usual, there seems to be no right answer and all will be convinced that their method and training was and is the best. I served for 36 years plus as an officer, started with revolvers and transitioned to a 1911 and then other SA/DA, Striker fired etc. guns for both duty and teaching.
I still love my revolvers and shoot/carry them often. In my opinion, revolvers were meant to be fired in DA mode for self defense but for a long distance, deliberate shot at maybe a small target. They were never made to be shot in all circumstance in single action mode and certainly never when covering a subject at close range. I used to practice single action shooting at distance, just in case I had to take that deliberate/precise shot. Single action revolver shooting is and was for PPC accuracy shooting and precise shots on suspects when a small target is presented but not for closer range combat distance shooting. This argument so closely reminds me of those surrounding 1911 carry methods. In my opinion, a 1911 is and was designed to be carried in condition 1 only, but there are many who will argue with that. My answer to that is get proper training!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Would not carry a Colt 1911 "cocked and locked". But I do not care if you do, if you are competent and confident with it.

I am in complete agreement. I don't like that mode of carry, I mean I REALLY DO NOT LIKE IT, but if you're good with it, fine. By good I mean competent!

A few decades ago there were incidents of "police shootings" wherein an officer had cocked his revolver and then accidentally touched it off because of the now light trigger. I believe one such incident caused a riot in Miami. 1980s.

Here's an interesting NYPD story and it's my personal evidence of why I vehemently disagree with hammer cocking a self defense revolver - the NYPD SPECIFICALLY armed their officers with revolvers that could not be cocked to avoid the ADs that happened far too often:

POLICE, CITING SAFETY, ADOPT NEW GUN - The New York Times

(c) NY Times - 1987

If you like to practice target shooting at distance I can understand why you would cock the hammer of a revolver. If you're a professionally trained LEO with routine over and over again training, listen, I don't argue with police departments and their protocols. But for the typical self defense shooter/gun carrying in the 21st century the worst possible thing you can teach yourself is to shoot your self defense revolver single action. YMMV. I've said this before so this is nothing new.

Moreover, unless you're a trained LEO or military fighter, or compete in assorted shooting sports, especially cowboy action where you are only shooting single action revolvers, there is very little reason to cock the hammer of your self defense wheelgun or pistol. Learn to point shoot, learn to be focused and quick about it but accurate, but be especially aware of your situation. Deciding to not shoot is way easier when your weapon in not cocked.

BTW, the same goes for hammer fired pistols. As noted, I included them above but this is an afterthought. 1911s, Hi-Powers, striker fired guns, they're in a different dimension and you must train accordingly. But if you like to carry 3rd Generation S&Ws, as one great example, learn to use them the same way you use a revolver - round in the chamber, hammer down. That's what decockers are for.

YMMV but I'll never buy the single action argument and I've been around a loooooong time!