Senate Gun Bill Compromise Reached

If the Republicans had any huevos they would have at least negotiated deregulating suppressors.
 
Do you disagree that the primary mass shooting impetus in this country is undiagnosed/untreated/ignored serious mental health issues?

Paul in Nevada said:
If you feel the need to "stomp" on your fellow gun owners, then you are just a Quisling of the gun ban lobby. People like you always sell out your friends and neighbors to the tyrants and then you wonder why there is no one to help you when the thugs finally come for you too.
Click to expand...
 
mental or EMOTIONAL, absolutely. I think its more emotionally unstable, to be honest, as opposed to brain chemistry or physical brain injury.
 
Muss Muggins said:
Do you disagree that the primary mass shooting impetus in this country is undiagnosed/untreated/ignored serious mental health issues?
Click to expand...
I don't associate those people with the gun rights movement. Is this a gun "subculture" (your words), or are you describing homicidal criminals in general who might just as easily use a knife or a bomb or a truck?
 
"Mental health" is a worthless topic. Any time looking at the field of psychology and psychiatry shows that these studies are in the dark ages of their medical fields, and they are incapable of actually healing the insane.

In real medicine, we define disease by cause, not by symptom. But, read the through the DSM manuals, and you will realize they are nothing but cold reading, child's own collections of symptoms, and not actual factual diagnosis of disease. A quick look through shows that many of the definitions are closer to women's magazine questionaires, and are just as thoroughly useless. The field of diagnosis is at best nearly useless, and at worst dangerous in its capacity for abuse. Personality disorders and diagnosis for "mental illness" have been abused in the past, and will be again in the future. Hardly solid, useful medicine and science.

Even when they can diagnose certain obvious problems, like severe bipolar or disabled or deranged schizophrenics, their ability to treat is often limited, or sometimes nearly useless. Certainly, some bipolar people have shown great progress with treatment, but many psychotic people can only be "treated" with major tranquilizers and kept permanently institutionalized. Which is hardly better than what was used to "treat" them before modern "mental health care". Often, the real "treatment' is just to dope them up so badly they can't act crazy.

Anti depression treatments that often WORSEN symptoms instead of improve them (notice how many mass shooters were on medication from your vaunted "mental healthcare system"), we have more counselors and people are encouraged to talk talk about their emotional problems, yet all these "mental health care professionals" are more prevalent even as suicides go UP, depression goes up, and people are MORE unhealthy.

These people don't have any answers, they can't help the sick, and they can't go around diagnosing and "fixing" the dangerous people. They have been given endless resources and support, been pushed into all institutions in society, and yet under their care, many things have only gotten worse. Do not simply give into "logical fallacy, appeal to authority". They are powerless, and the problems you want to fix so badly aren't within their ability to fix.

One of the greatest social cancers after WW 2 was this boundless optimism, this mass insanity that Man had finally overcome every obstacle and could fix anything, that technocrats and magic scientists could do anything and had no limits. They aren't magic, they can't do everything, the State and scientists are not omnipotent.

More money and support for "mental health", a worthless mantra mindlessly repeated, at best will do absolutely nothing positive. At worst, it will lead to Soviet style abuses of the population.

Resist the temptation.
 
I find it interesting that whenever the subject of what to do comes up there is never any give back to gunowners. Why, when discussing "UBC" is it not linked to being able to buy across state lines "cash & carry" from a gun store after the UBC is run? Why, when opening up juvenile records to NCIS, do we not ask that the age to purchase a handgun from an FFL is dropped to 18 yrs? After all, SCOTUS did decide a handgun in the home for self defense is a right.

I live in CA. If anyone wants to see what happens when "reasonable gun laws" ultimately go - to borrow a phrase, "lass sie nach Califoria kommen" ;)

Not to offend, but folks in the "good states" may want to consider where such things lead.
 
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Paul in Nevada said:
I don't associate those people with the gun rights movement. Is this a gun "subculture" (your words), or are you describing homicidal criminals in general who might just as easily use a knife or a bomb or a truck?
Click to expand...

I didn’t use “subculture,” but if you don’t associate mental health with mass shootings, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Thankfully, the Senate bill addresses mental health evaluation and treatment, which will help many societal issues . . .
 
BB57 said:
The enhanced background checks are additional vetting for potential gun buyers between the ages of 18 and 21 to include previously blocked juvenile records on criminal activity and mental health.

I’m ok with that.
Click to expand...

I live in Illinois, where we are required to have a FOID card. I got my first FOID card when I was 12, in 1968.

When I was 16 me and some friends got busted for possession of alcohol as a minor.
When my FOID renewal came up it was denied until I turned 21.

I honestly don't see that as having been a bad thing. It taught me the value of being law-abiding.

When I turned 21 I celebrated by going squirrel hunting.

Edit: OTOH it did nothing to stop my access to guns. I still had my 22/410 O/U. I just couldn't buy bullets. We had ammo around the house. In my case I was in college so I just focused on other things instead.
 
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BB57 said:
What’s been proposed isn’t great, but it’s better than what was proposed and quite frankly it should serve as a wake up call for gun owners.

But probably not the way many of you are thinking.

Remember those morons who held open carry demonstrations at Chipotle, Target, Starbucks, etc who turned those mostly pro gun business against open carry (and thankfully just silent on open carry)?

They are not helping our cause. In fact people who go around posting pictured of themselves with guns and in tactical gear and then making statements to the effect they’ll use their guns and God given rights to defend their cause, whether it’s a flag, or their belief that library fines are theft, create a very negative gun sub culture.

No harm may be intended, and 99.99 % of the people posting those posts will never act on them or commit a crime with a gun, but there will be impressionable young ,en you have been bullied or abused and or were just born a half bubble off plumb who will take that messaging seriously. They’ll see it as a group they belong to and a gun as a means to have power and control they don’t have in their lives.

A few of the, every year will see the sensational and excessive media coverage of a mass shooting and see the shooter as someone like them who wielded power and became important, and they’ll decide to do the same.


We don’t have a gun problem in the US but:

- we do have a mental health diagnosis and treatment problem;
- we do have problems caused by irresponsible use of media and social media requiring more responsible wielding of everyone’s first amendment rights; and
- we have a toxic gun sub culture that the other 99% of us firearms owners and shooter need to stomp on as part of our being more responsible in wielding and preserving our second amendment rights.
Click to expand...
Ohhh....ya done stepped into it now :D
 
Duckford said:
"Mental health" is a worthless topic. Any time looking at the field of psychology and psychiatry shows that these studies are in the dark ages of their medical fields, and they are incapable of actually healing the insane.

In real medicine, we define disease by cause, not by symptom. But, read the through the DSM manuals, and you will realize they are nothing but cold reading, child's own collections of symptoms, and not actual factual diagnosis of disease. A quick look through shows that many of the definitions are closer to women's magazine questionaires, and are just as thoroughly useless. The field of diagnosis is at best nearly useless, and at worst dangerous in its capacity for abuse. Personality disorders and diagnosis for "mental illness" have been abused in the past, and will be again in the future. Hardly solid, useful medicine and science.

Even when they can diagnose certain obvious problems, like severe bipolar or disabled or deranged schizophrenics, their ability to treat is often limited, or sometimes nearly useless. Certainly, some bipolar people have shown great progress with treatment, but many psychotic people can only be "treated" with major tranquilizers and kept permanently institutionalized. Which is hardly better than what was used to "treat" them before modern "mental health care". Often, the real "treatment' is just to dope them up so badly they can't act crazy.

Anti depression treatments that often WORSEN symptoms instead of improve them (notice how many mass shooters were on medication from your vaunted "mental healthcare system"), we have more counselors and people are encouraged to talk talk about their emotional problems, yet all these "mental health care professionals" are more prevalent even as suicides go UP, depression goes up, and people are MORE unhealthy.

These people don't have any answers, they can't help the sick, and they can't go around diagnosing and "fixing" the dangerous people. They have been given endless resources and support, been pushed into all institutions in society, and yet under their care, many things have only gotten worse. Do not simply give into "logical fallacy, appeal to authority". They are powerless, and the problems you want to fix so badly aren't within their ability to fix.

One of the greatest social cancers after WW 2 was this boundless optimism, this mass insanity that Man had finally overcome every obstacle and could fix anything, that technocrats and magic scientists could do anything and had no limits. They aren't magic, they can't do everything, the State and scientists are not omnipotent.

More money and support for "mental health", a worthless mantra mindlessly repeated, at best will do absolutely nothing positive. At worst, it will lead to Soviet style abuses of the population.

Resist the temptation.
Click to expand...
A number of board certified psychologists or psychiatrists would disagree with your opinion.

Not just murderers, but many, many of those in prison have serious mental health issues, and many more have identifiable learning disabilities (I serve on our Adult Parole Board).
 
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Duckford said:
"Mental health" is a worthless topic. Any time looking at the field of psychology and psychiatry shows that these studies are in the dark ages of their medical fields, and they are incapable of actually healing the insane.

In real medicine, we define disease by cause, not by symptom. But, read the through the DSM manuals, and you will realize they are nothing but cold reading, child's own collections of symptoms, and not actual factual diagnosis of disease. A quick look through shows that many of the definitions are closer to women's magazine questionaires, and are just as thoroughly useless. The field of diagnosis is at best nearly useless, and at worst dangerous in its capacity for abuse. Personality disorders and diagnosis for "mental illness" have been abused in the past, and will be again in the future. Hardly solid, useful medicine and science.

Even when they can diagnose certain obvious problems, like severe bipolar or disabled or deranged schizophrenics, their ability to treat is often limited, or sometimes nearly useless. Certainly, some bipolar people have shown great progress with treatment, but many psychotic people can only be "treated" with major tranquilizers and kept permanently institutionalized. Which is hardly better than what was used to "treat" them before modern "mental health care". Often, the real "treatment' is just to dope them up so badly they can't act crazy.

Anti depression treatments that often WORSEN symptoms instead of improve them (notice how many mass shooters were on medication from your vaunted "mental healthcare system"), we have more counselors and people are encouraged to talk talk about their emotional problems, yet all these "mental health care professionals" are more prevalent even as suicides go UP, depression goes up, and people are MORE unhealthy.

These people don't have any answers, they can't help the sick, and they can't go around diagnosing and "fixing" the dangerous people. They have been given endless resources and support, been pushed into all institutions in society, and yet under their care, many things have only gotten worse. Do not simply give into "logical fallacy, appeal to authority". They are powerless, and the problems you want to fix so badly aren't within their ability to fix.

One of the greatest social cancers after WW 2 was this boundless optimism, this mass insanity that Man had finally overcome every obstacle and could fix anything, that technocrats and magic scientists could do anything and had no limits. They aren't magic, they can't do everything, the State and scientists are not omnipotent.

More money and support for "mental health", a worthless mantra mindlessly repeated, at best will do absolutely nothing positive. At worst, it will lead to Soviet style abuses of the population.

Resist the temptation.
Click to expand...

where was your degree in Medicine from? What is your medical specialty?
 
biku324 said:
A number of board certified psychologists or psychiatrists would disagree with your opinion.

Not just murderers, but many, many of those in prison have serious mental health issues, and many more have identifiable learning disabilities (I serve on our Adult Parole Board).
Click to expand...

I usually agree with your posts as your comments are intelligent, fact-based, and you know what you are talking about, unlike the many who reply armed only with great emotion which they don't control well. Great emotion isn't worth much and it educates no one.

You have reason to believe psychologists and psychiatrists are largely competent and provide a worthwhile service. I won't argue the point, but my family has dealt with many of these jokers over decades due to a daughter's mental illness. My experience has been vastly different than yours. I'm sure there are competent practitioners in these fields, but finding one is incredibly difficult.

From this layman's viewpoint, psychiatry is a very primitive field of medicine infested with troubled and incompetent persons. This certainly has bearing on the overall quality of mental health treatment in this country. No doubt there are good folks in these professions, just not enough of them to go around. Funding is often blamed and I'm sure that's also a contributory factor.

Again, I respect your comments, different though they may be.
 
I spent 10 years in the Hamilton County Public Defenders Office. Most criminal behavior is by people who are mentally unstable or chemically intoxicated (including alcohol as first on the list). Partly that is because smart sober people do not get caught

I observed the behavioral differences in many individual both on or off their meds. There are a number of medications that help a number of conditions. Far more research is needed but much progress has been made. And regardless of knowing how to treat it, a number of violence prone mental health issues are readily recognizable by a professional. And many are not.
 
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rockquarry said:
I usually agree with your posts as your comments are intelligent, fact-based, and you know what you are talking about, unlike the many who reply armed only with great emotion which they don't control well. Great emotion isn't worth much and it educates no one.

You have reason to believe psychologists and psychiatrists are largely competent and provide a worthwhile service. I won't argue the point, but my family has dealt with many of these jokers over decades due to a daughter's mental illness. My experience has been vastly different than yours. I'm sure there are competent practitioners in these fields, but finding one is incredibly difficult.

From this layman's viewpoint, psychiatry is a very primitive field of medicine infested with troubled and incompetent persons. This certainly has bearing on the overall quality of mental health treatment in this country. No doubt there are good folks in these professions, just not enough of them to go around. Funding is often blamed and I'm sure that's also a contributory factor.

Again, I respect your comments, different though they may be.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to hear of your daughter's chronic difficulties. Such a trial would be very tough to handle. Good for you for not giving up.
 
BB57 said:
What’s been proposed isn’t great, but it’s better than what was proposed and quite frankly it should serve as a wake up call for gun owners.

But probably not the way many of you are thinking.

Remember those morons who held open carry demonstrations at Chipotle, Target, Starbucks, etc who turned those mostly pro gun business against open carry (and thankfully just silent on open carry)?

They are not helping our cause. In fact people who go around posting pictured of themselves with guns and in tactical gear and then making statements to the effect they’ll use their guns and God given rights to defend their cause, whether it’s a flag, or their belief that library fines are theft, create a very negative gun sub culture.

No harm may be intended, and 99.99 % of the people posting those posts will never act on them or commit a crime with a gun, but there will be impressionable young ,en you have been bullied or abused and or were just born a half bubble off plumb who will take that messaging seriously. They’ll see it as a group they belong to and a gun as a means to have power and control they don’t have in their lives.

A few of the, every year will see the sensational and excessive media coverage of a mass shooting and see the shooter as someone like them who wielded power and became important, and they’ll decide to do the same.


We don’t have a gun problem in the US but:

- we do have a mental health diagnosis and treatment problem;
- we do have problems caused by irresponsible use of media and social media requiring more responsible wielding of everyone’s first amendment rights; and
- we have a toxic gun sub culture that the other 99% of us firearms owners and shooter need to stomp on as part of our being more responsible in wielding and preserving our second amendment rights.
Click to expand...

You bring up some very important and salient points.

We are in an epic, uphill public relations fight. In this fight we face the majority of the media, Pravdaese propaganda and misinformation, and a general ignorance and/or misunderstanding of the general public.

Those middle of the road voters who may side with us are not impressed by "Buba" walking into Starbucks with his tactical vest, half a dozen magazines and an AK47. They don't look at Buba with great admiration and see a stalwart defender of freedom, a Constitutional hero. They see something that frightens them, that cause alarm and makes them very uncomfortable. They see the media talking about AR15s and show a M16 being fired full auto, hear how these guns are the most powerful around, how you can mail order them on the internet. And we lose them. They begin to think that banning an AK or AR is "reasonable", that it will stop Buba from scaring them and their children Starbucks. We lose potential support and votes for no gain.

When open carry passed, and then Constitutional carry, scores upon scores of businesses got scared. Many didn't even realize that Texas had CCW for 20 years. Many would say they never had anyone carrying a gun in their place of work/business, but now that they knew it they began to ban all forms of carry.

And before some attack me, No I an not saying to limit, or not exercise, our rights. But we need to be much smarter in how we exercise them. We need to be mindful that scaring people and losing their votes is not a gain, but a huge loss.

As to the toxic gun subculture you are correct. All one needs to do is look at social media, look at Chicago and the gangs that emulate and proffer that subculture.
 
Heinz said:
I spent 10 years in the Hamilton County Public Defenders Office. Most criminal behavior is by people who are mentally unstable or chemically intoxicated (including alcohol as first on the list). Partly that is because smart sober people do not get caught

I observed the behavioral differences in many individual both on or off their meds. There are a number of medications that help a number of conditions. Far more research is needed but much progress has been made. And regardless of knowing how to treat it, a number of violence prone mental health issues are readily recognizable by a professional. And many are not.
Click to expand...

That mental health is an issue is just a FACT. Ignoring it and denying it only prolongs the negative effects of it. Is there a cure? Sadly, no. But those deleterious effects can be mitigated.
 
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