FMJ vs Hollow points for carry

[Nevada Ed]

Some years ago, when the NYPD used to issue an annual report, they determined 83% of their shots missed entirely.

Sad, but, how so true, since..........
a lot of shots are coming from some type of "Cover" in most cases where there are a lot of rounds are being excanged.

Very seldom is the single shot, put down available in most of todays calls.
The BG's are learning every day, how to be able to survive and maybe
get to have their day in court and get back out on the streets, again.

We all would like to make a deposit to the BG but at what cost?
The safety of my family comes first and pulling a trigger might only be my last option.....
while handing over my wallet and hoping that the person runs away, might be a smart move?

I am just lucky that 99% of the places that we go are "Low Risk areas"
and the house has lots of bells and lights and two dogs.

 

[Uraldriver]

You should carry a HP, and probably a lighter weight bullet. It would suck to Drop some tweaker or other miscreant only to have legit shoot turn into crime because you killed a bystander a half a block away.

If you have to shoot, it will be in an instant with little time to be scanning for a safe backstop.

If those old shoot statistics were to be believed a 125 grain HP Has nearly rifle level stopping ability.

 

[Gamecock]

Sad, but, how so true, since..........
a lot of shots are coming from some type of "Cover" in most cases where there are a lot of rounds are being excanged.

You are correct.

The irony being that NYPD was the first major department to implement HP ammunition, with the stated purpose of reducing over penetration. Not for improving the effectiveness of police shooting, i.e., stopping perps faster, rather to protect people behind the perp. As I recall, one year they discharged 4,000 rounds, and ONE person was killed by over penetration. Maybe. With multiple shots fired, it wasn't absolutely certain that the bullet had passed thru the perp first.

I find it amusing. A department with a spray-and-pray doctrine worried about over penetration.

 

[rich5674]

Remington 125gn +P

Remington 38spl 125gn +P HP. According to a Lucky Gunner test this is a fairly reliable round that is not expensive, controllable in a snub and cheap enough for practice. I have these in my HD 38. I practice with equivalent 125- 130gn hand loads. If going FMJ it would be wadcutter ammo

 

[Smokester653]

Carry What......

I am no ballistics expert but here's my opinion.. Carry what you shoot well, functions well in your weapon reliably and if you are on a budget what you can afford to train with to check off the above. I've seen some wild accounts of one shot kills with this and no stopage of a threat with that after 15 rounds so really what works every time? Nothing... unless you get great hits in vital areas so if you are carrying +P of whatever and you can't "hit" those vital areas because of recoil or your weapon doesn't "like it" well how good is that high dollar ammo? Also I think of my work as a paramedic and I promise you I have seen more DRT with cheap dirty ammo than I have with the high dollar JHP ammo...above all train and know your weapon..and God Bless everyone.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

The only gun I use FMJ in is my Beretta 81BB in .32 ACP . It works 100% of the time with FMJ and at the speed it normally runs at I haven't found a JHP bullet that opens anything like reliably so why spend the extra. I do plan to get a couple of molds and work up some lead bullet loads for it that should be as reliable and give some expansion.

In larger calibers I carry HP, JSP or Keith SWC in fairly soft lead. If you are shooting a snub .38 Special I would use some form of LSWC or some full wad cutters if I had to use factory ammo. I use 110 and 135 grain GDHP in my snubs but I load all of my ammo and have a good supply of those bullets.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The only gun I use FMJ in is my Beretta 81BB in .32 ACP . It works 100% of the time with FMJ and at the speed it normally runs at I haven't found a JHP bullet that opens anything like reliably so why spend the extra. I do plan to get a couple of molds and work up some lead bullet loads for it that should be as reliable and give some expansion.

In larger calibers I carry HP, JSP or Keith SWC in fairly soft lead. If you are shooting a snub .38 Special I would use some form of LSWC or some full wad cutters if I had to use factory ammo. I use 110 and 135 grain GDHP in my snubs but I load all of my ammo and have a good supply of those bullets.

The problem with a 38 snub nose is ....... recoil vs penetration.
Most Handicaped people can't handle +P or "FBI" loads in a J frame.
A target 148 HBWC is usually a maximum load for them in a "Airweight".

You just have to know your "Limits".

 

[BabaBlueJay]

To me, accuracy (+/_ an inch at 30+yards) isn't really a consideration in CC. In most instances you won't be shooting anyone 30 yards away or you'll probably find yourself in jail.

You don't mention what caliber you shoot. HP's are a consideration due to expansion (soft tissue damage) and the threat of over penetration from a FMJ.
You must know your gun though. Some semi-auto pistols are finicky with HP's. Also, depending on the bullet type, low velocity rounds may negate the effectiveness of the HP design while, at the same time, reduce the potential for over penetration.

This aged well after the mall shooting. Anyone who only practices at average defense ranges is a fool. You should practice at as many different ranges as you can within reason.

 

[WR Moore]

I thought the issue of FMJ S&B .357 had been dealt with in another thread. However, you don't really have to practice with your exact carry load. Only governments can afford that sort of stuff and liability is a major reason for it.

What you can do is find a practice load with a cheaper bullet that is pretty close to the same ballistics. Both Federal and Winchester have training and defensive/duty loads that are the same, except that one has a JHP and the other doesn't. I expect more folks are going to jump on the same money train. Personally, I've never noticed any practical difference in POI or accuracy when changing from ball ammo to JHP. However, since you're talking about .357, is it possible the JHP load is hotter/lighter? I'd personally be really reluctant to use 158 gr .357 in any bullet configuration for defensive use-unless you're talking bears.

 

[smoothshooter]

Do not use FMJ, except maybe in a .45 ACP.

Ammo accuracy is not really important for self-defense shooting where distances involved are typically measured in feet, if not inches. Functional reliability IS.
Heck, you don’t really even need rifling at those ranges!

Most people ( good and bad ) shot with handguns are shot by people who couldn’t reliably hit a garbage can lid at 20 yards under stress. Or a football at 7 yards.

 

[smoothshooter]

Some misconceptions here concerning the use of hollow point ammo use by the US Military.
The Geneva Convention does not address hollow points.
The US is not a signatory to the Hague Convention.
Look up M1153 cartridges.

Virtually none of our enemies in hot, sandy places are signatories either.

 

[smoothshooter]

Your 3” groups at 35 yards are going to go right out the window if you ever have an armed confrontation requiring you to shoot.

A load and skill level that will barely stay in 12” at 15 or 20 yards is more than required.
(#1 ) VERY GOOD practice is good.
(#2 ) Very accurate ammo is good.

(#1 ) is much more important than (#2 )

As an ordinary citizen, if you are shooting at someone at 20 yards or more, you are probably screwing up, in our legal climate.

 

[sigp220.45]

If I’m carrying a .380 it’ll be loaded with FMJ of some kind. All I require of a .380 is reliability and a .355 hole going in and a .355 hole coming out.

 

[jimmyj]

In today's era, one carrys what is available.

 

[smoothshooter]

The instructor at my range says once you find a defense load that works well in your carry gun you should go out and buy 5'000 rounds of it. Then shoot at least 2'000 rounds to get proficient with shooting that gun / bullet. After that shoot a full magazine once every two weeks to stay proficient.

That is no longer practical advice.

 

[smoothshooter]

Since you say you are trying BB 158 gr Short Barrel Low Recoil I assume you have a snub .357 or .38 S&W Spl. SB formulations use less faster burning powder so out of longer barrels they underperform.

My carry is a SB .357 and I use Gold Dot Short Barrels.

But at Special speeds out of 1 5/8", HPs of "normal weights" won't reliably expand. 85--90 gr do, but you trade away too much weight and penetration IMHO.

Square shoulders do more damage than round noses. So:

.38 S&W Spl full power: 158 gr Keith SWC
.38 S&W Spl reduced power: 148 gr Wadcutter


An attorney told me "NEVER CARRY YOUR OWN HANDLOADS" otherwise heavy slow "pin" loads might be considered, 200--230 gr in .38 S&W Spl.

If I couldn't use a HP in .357 I'd carry the heaviest .357 BB SOFT CAST Keith SWC available.

My $0.02

The whole thing about not carrying your own handloads, unless you are loading up ammo with something weird, is BS. A lot of attorneys don’t know what they are talking about. Especially when it comes to guns. If someone is unfortunate enough to live in one of the People’s Republic states, it might be a little bit of an issue, but should not be an insurmountable problem.
Bullets with blunt profiles, whether hollowpoint or flatnose, generally perform better in tissue.
I have been putting holes in living creatures (animals) and examining wound channels for a long time and feel well protected carrying small revolvers and pocket automatics chambered in .22LR, .380, and hollow-based full wadcutters in .38 Special.

 

[smoothshooter]

The problem with a 38 snub nose is ....... recoil vs penetration.
Most Handicaped people can't handle +P or "FBI" loads in a J frame.
A target 148 HBWC is usually a maximum load for them in a "Airweight".

You just have to know your "Limits".

I am not handicapped and won’t shoot any +P .38 or .357 load in an Airweight revolver either. Been there. Done that. Never again.
148 gr. Hollow Based Wadcutters at about 700 fps. for me.

 

[Gamecock]

This aged well after the mall shooting. Anyone who only practices at average defense ranges is a fool. You should practice at as many different ranges as you can within reason.

Fool? Rilly?

I am not a police officer. I have no duty to be proficient. I can shoot well enough to get out of a close encounter. The mere appearance of a gun stops over 99% of conflicts.

Training for the 0.001% chance makes no sense to me. I've got other things to do.

 

[ladder13]

Whatever I have.

 

[Dave Lively]

The whole thing about not carrying your own handloads, unless you are loading up ammo with something weird, is BS. A lot of attorneys don’t know what they are talking about. Especially when it comes to guns.

Lawyers may not know much about guns but they do know a lot about the court system. Its worth listening to what they have to say.

We all like to think that if we have to use a gun it will be so clearly be a case of self defense that it will never go to court. But the criminals get to decide the specific conditions, not us. Its not always clear cut.

Suppose a group of unarmed but large, strong and aggressive young teenagers tries to intimidate you into giving them your wallet and won't take no for an answer. Don't shoot and you could end up getting robbed, beaten to within an inch of your life or killed. Shoot and the media will give plenty of air time to the grieving mothers talking about how the crazy gun nut needlessly gunned down their little angels that never hurt a fly.

If it does go to court a jury of your peers will not mean 12 people that go shooting weekly and spend their spare time reading gun forums. It means 12 random people that likely know even less about guns than the attorneys you mentioned. A prosecutor could succesfully try to convince them that someone who "makes homemade bullets" is someone that was looking for a fight.