Montanans and electric cars

[steelslaver]

Some Nit Wit posted on a Montana tude page that Montanans must be afraid of technology because we bash electric cars.

Here is my THOUGHT

It is not that we are afraid of technology or electric vehicles. We are afraid of stupid and tightly so. It don't take a lot of brains to look around, see power outages, brown outs etc, hear the screams to shut down those nasty coal fired generators. Plus, know that the electrical distribution system is maxed out now and say where is the power going to come from? Yes, we see those wind mills turning, we also see them NOT turning. We also know from experience that if your stock tank is filled by a wind mill and the wind doesn't blow it will go dry. Being able to look at Butte and Berkeley pit and thinking that making a whole bunch of bigger toxic pits to mine and extract lithium might not be all that great environmentally, isn't exactly brain storming either. Knowing how much power it takes to plow and how big this state is and the distances traveled the lack of charging capacity and time needed to do so sure don't help.

Yes, electric motors are more efficient than internal combustion. DUH. Yes, they are the FUTURE. But, I tell you what, our grandpas sure as heck weren't dumb enough to restrict the sale or get rid of their horses and wagons until there was plenty of fuel and a good distribution system.
It isn't that we are afraid of technology. It is that we are not Dumb.

 

[Breakaway500]

Until Kirk beams down with the dilithium crystals internal combustion will power vehicles viably. Ive driven a 1000hp electric vehicle (Tesla Plaid) and was genuinely impressed BUT it's power came from fossil fuel generated electricity. (In the Northeast, 95% of the total grid electric power is coal,oil or natural gas.)

 

[vt_shooter]

We're barking up the wrong tree with battery-powered electric cars. Fuel cells, or something that uses hydrogen and oxygen, could be a solution, but we aren't there yet. In the mean time, fossil fuels efficiency would make sense. Remember decades ago the push for fuel efficiency was all the rage, and that notion was cast aside for whatever reason. But the push for battery powered cars is going to bite us in the ###.

 

[steelslaver]

I would actually consider a hybrid for personal transportation. To me they make some sense. Electric drive gives great torque, no loss to transmission or drive line, partial dynamic braking puts power back in batteries instead of 100% being burned off as brake pad friction, same for going down hill. When the fuel motor runs it runs at its peak efficiency generating power to charge and assist battery. Win win except for battery cost and environmental impact of them.

I am actually thinking of building a small 2 side by side seat buggy using bike tires a small generator, batteries and a large trolling motor for putting around town.

Something like this.

 

[Rodan]

We recently drove across ND, MT and WY on a trip. Very few electric cars on the Interstates and rural highways up there, even compared to here in AZ.

I don't recall seeing a single charging station at any fuel stop we made in those states. With the range degradation in winter, an EV could literally be suicide in the wrong conditions in places like MT and WY.

EVs make a lot of sense in a dense urban environment where the infrastructure supports them, and the miles driven are solidly within their performance envelope. Not so much out in the rural West and Rocky Mountain states.

The fact that they are mostly still powered by fossil fuel power generation is lost on most of the EV proponents, however. There's not enough land surface available to build the wind and solar generation required to move the entire country into EVs. Not and still grow food, anyway. Not to mention that the 'rare earth' minerals required to make EVs are in much smaller supply than the fossil fuels they decry.

I wouldn't mind having an EV for my wife to drive to work and back, but it doesn't make sense to have an extra vehicle just for that purpose. Because the Jeep she drives can do many things that an EV can't.

 

[Rodan]

We're barking up the wrong tree with battery-powered electric cars. Fuel cells, or something that uses hydrogen and oxygen, could be a solution, but we aren't there yet.

The current path is all about money and control of the market. There are certainly better technologies that are less impactful to the environment that are being ignored.

I like the idea of on-board generation with electric motors, kind of like a diesel electric locomotive, but using a combined cycle natural gas fueled turbine for generation. In powerplants, the combined cycle (uses a secondary turbine to utilized wasted exhaust heat) systems have reached something like 60% efficiency.

 

[WR Moore]

Well, the Benz patent-if he had one-has certainly run out. Battery pack weight might sink the power to weight ratio to the point of being impractical.

If we're being practical, the diesel electric pattern used on locomotives, heavy haul mining trucks and some other stuff would work. Pretty much hybrid on the industrial scale, but the ICE is always running. Often at a fixed most efficient engine speed.

A couple of years back Road & Track did a coast to coast electric vehicle trip. While they had an app to find charging stations, some of them hadn't been built yet. That led to some scares. Apparently in some places, Wal Mart is hosting charging stations. Gives you someplace to spend money while waiting for the battery to charge. Detailed planning is apparently needed if you're going to travel.

 

[bigwheelzip]

I'm not enamored of being tethered to a vehicle wholely dependant on the prevailing motor vehicle battery technology. However, there are electric vehicles powered by other sources which have no inherent range restrictions.



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[Rodan]

Apparently in some places, Wal Mart is hosting charging stations. Gives you someplace to spend money while waiting for the battery to charge. Detailed planning is apparently needed if you're going to travel.

This is one of the problems. The charging equipment is not standardized, so you can't charge your Tesla at Wal-Mart and you can't charge your Prius at a Tesla charger, etc.

Apparently there are adapters, but using one slows the charge rate significantly.

And at least if you stop for fuel and a pump isn't working, there are plenty of others avaialble, or another station across the street. Might not be the case for a charging station at this point.

I'm not at all opposed to the technology, I'm just opposed to forced change... to a system that isn't ready for prime time outside the big city.

 

[steelslaver]

2 very basic things need to happen for 100% electric cars to actually make sense. 1 is a huge increase in electrical generation by methods other than fossil fuels. Solar panels will not cut it as producing those is another environmental disaster and the reason most are made in China. Direct radiation heat collection to run steam turbines is better and we do have quite a bit of desert. Wind is expensive and high maintenance and not all that controllable. Fission reactors are better now that we can almost completely consume the fuel and leave almost no radioactive waste. Fusion would be excellent if perfected but that is a ways off yet. Plus, a much improved distribution system because even if we had more power our grid is already over capacity and a lot of it is ageing. Wire both copper and aluminum is expensive .

A better battery. Lithium is not the end all. It is a environmental wreck. Aluminum Ion batteries are able to store 3 times the amount of a lithium battery and charge 70 times faster so that may be close IF they can increase their life span. I have no idea on their cost.

Those that doubt that electric cars will at some point in the future take over should remember the thoughts of our great grandparents on both gasoline vehicles and electricity.

I remember my grandpa telling me about his dad saying "Talk over wires. Ridiculous that can't be done." Well not only do we talk, but we see and we don't even bother with the wires. My grandpa never even imagined anything other than horses or trains as a kid. If you think we have made it as far as we can go, history has shown that is never the case.

"Everything that can be invented has been" was reportedly a brash statement made in 1899 by the then Commissioner of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, one Charles H. Duell, who, it was claimed, felt he should retire because the flow of patent applications would shortly dry up and, consequently, the U.S. Patent Office would no longer be needed.

Didn't quite nail it.

 

[pharmer]

If you have ever sparked gasoline fumes you know how much energy is available from that vapor. If auto makers explored that potential I imagine it's possible to go hundreds of miles on fumes. Except nobody wants that so we are stuck with fuel injection which still burns liquid gas. There might come a time when "smart folks" actually work on solutions to our energy problems but unfortunately they spend all their time on TV raising money to defeat their "enemies", the stupid who disagree with them. Joe

 

[SPEEDGUNNER]

Think nuclear.

 

[s&wchad]

Maybe someday... The technology and infrastructure doesn't exist yet. An EV might be a nice toy for driving around town, but I'd still need a conventional truck for my lifestyle.

It's about 220 miles up to deer camp and I need 4 wheel drive when I'm there. There's no electricity, just a generator. I suppose I could find a charging station somewhere along the way, wait in line to plug in and waste 45 minutes to get an 80% charge. I'd need to do the same thing on the way home.

I'm heading down to Ohio in few weeks to walleye fish on Lk Erie. I'll be taking 3 or 4 big guys and all our gear with me. Good luck doing that in EV.

My truck holds 36 gallons of gas, seats 5 comfortably and has a range of over 600 miles. I can refuel in less than 10 minutes and go another 600+ miles. If/when an EV can match that capability and convenience, I'll consider it.

 

[mtgianni]

We also see a lot of cold weather. I can imagine the miles before a recharge is going to drop with twenty below weather. Is the heater going to keep up?

I recall someone on a gun board being quoted $11,000 for an AC replacement on an all electric car.

What seems even dumber to us is the push for electric farm equipment. Farms are often miles from town and have no electric services. Our once reliable Utility was sold. When it was announced an Australian company wanted to buy it, our PSC declared that rates could not be raised to pay off a purchase. They have also mandated for 20+ years that new lines must pay for themselves and not be added to existing rate base. The cost of running electricity to a farm 20 + miles from town and only used 4 weeks a year to charge equipment would be laughable.
IMO, Electric only vehicles are a feel good idea for those who have no idea where food comes from.

For real climate modernization, try banning air conditioners which add heat to the outside, banning asphalt and concrete roads, the heat they store is adding to the planets warmth, concrete buildings should be coated with non heat absorbing materials and any roofing over 3000 square feet should be covered with grass to reduce heat, help balance CO2 levels and go green.

 

[venomballistics]

We're barking up the wrong tree with battery-powered electric cars. Fuel cells, or something that uses hydrogen and oxygen, could be a solution, but we aren't there yet. In the mean time, fossil fuels efficiency would make sense. Remember decades ago the push for fuel efficiency was all the rage, and that notion was cast aside for whatever reason. But the push for battery powered cars is going to bite us in the a##.

even those are largely wrong trees.
right now, you have a vehicle with and internal combustion engine. That is where most everyone's transportation budget is invested. Most do not have the equity to fund an $80,000 on up bunny hugger do over.
The right trees are liquid fuels that can be made to work with what you drive right now with minimal modification.

 

[Rodan]

What seems even dumber to us is the push for electric farm equipment. Farms are often miles from town and have no electric services.

The other issue with farm equipment is that it is often expected to run nearly 24/7 when the harvest needs to come in, and is refueled on-site in the fields. That's not going to work with current EV tech.

As usual, the folks pushing these ideas have never actually done the job being discussed and have no idea what's involved.

 

[venomballistics]

The other issue with farm equipment is that it is often expected to run nearly 24/7 when the harvest needs to come in, and is refueled on-site in the fields. That's not going to work with current EV tech.

As usual, the folks pushing these ideas have never actually done the job being discussed and have no idea what's involved.

I cannot see that working with any EV tech, current, near or far future.
it does not necessarily have to be gas or diesel, but it must be a liquid you can pump or pour into a tank.

 

[djohns6]

I'm not at all opposed to the technology, I'm just opposed to forced change... to a system that isn't ready for prime time outside the big city.

Preach it !

 

[oddshooter]

It would seem that it is not only the main street media that spreads misinformation. The lack of experience or education doesn't seem to stop folks from their opinions; which is what freedom is about.

If interested, I suggest everyone try to find media that doesn't agree with their own biases. And the net already knows what you think about technology and by default only shows you what they think you will like to hear or read. That helps them sell stuff, but it's not conducive to a complete, unbiased perspective.

We all like to have our views reinforced, but I would advise caution in today's world of mass indoctrination. I don't care what the topic is.

 

[djohns6]

My nephew is a Contruction Manager with the DOTD here . He recently attended a conference in Seattle. One of the discussion topics was about transitioning to electric powered road construction equipment . WAY too many issues for which they have no answers right now . Some tree hugger thought it was a great idea I'm sure .