Secret Service .38 Special Ammo

[rockquarry]

If I remember right Massad Ayoob liked to carry an airweight model 38 nickel snub nose for a back up gun. He knew it wasn't recommended to carry the treasury load in his gun, but he did, and said it stretched out the frame.

He was fortunate. I cracked the frame of my nickel Model 38 using standard pressure handloads, and very few of those. Seems the frame would crack before it stretched.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Way back in the old days, (before gel paks) I remember a large test on ammo done by a company
that checked out the energy of a bullet with barrel lengths and amount of time
that it took goats to expire.

I will stop here, since this might be a "Can of worms" about to fall over.

 

[rockquarry]

Here are the actual .38 Special pressure figures for the testing done by Lee Jurras in the Super Vel Lab (HANDLOADER #27, Sept. 1970). There was more here than I remembered. Velocity is from 4" Colt MK III
Remington-Peters 158 JHP 20,000 832
Winchester-Western 158 LHP 19,000 924
Speer-DWM 158 JSP 19,285 817
RWS 158 JHP 21,457 910
Speer DWM 140 JHP 24,756 1,010
Remington-Peters 125 JHP 21,250 1,055
Speer-DWM 125 JSP 23,150 1,068
Norma 110 JHP 27,250 1,193
Super Vel 110 JHP 19,000 1,090

 

[loc n load]

+P+ 110 JHP

I was issued this load to carry in a model 10 in the 80's, we carried 2" & 4". I was used to shooting full throttle 357's in my own K frames, so this +P+ 110 load was no biggie for me. I could not really tell the difference between it and any number of +P 158 gr loads that I was shooting back then.
Post#5 sums up the history and the thinking of that era that brought about this load.
I chrono'ed it years ago, but do not remember what it actually clocked at.
It was certainly an improvement IMO over what we had carried previously. Having said that, I was never a fan of the "lighter-faster" school, I favored the "heavier-faster" approach.
I still have some of the +P+ Treasury loads, will have to run some of them by my Labradar to refresh my memory.

 

[jimmyj]

In any handgun round I want it to shoot to POI

 

[Benton Quest]

In any handgun round I want it to shoot to POI

At what range?....as it kind of varies.

Sent from my SM-G990U using Tapatalk

 

[JMV366]

I was a USSS agent from 1982 to 2002.
110 gr JHP Treasury load by W-W and Federal was what we carried in our S&W M-19 2.5 ". Our back up or off-duty - Colt or S&W - 5 or 6 shot - steel, SS or airweight. We used to shoot factory wadcutters in the smaller frame guns for requals so we didn't beat em' up with the Treasury load.

The 110 gr Treasury load was designed to not over- penetrate especially if agents had to fire their weapon during a protective assignment. There were a number of shootings with the 110 gr Treasury load and it performed fairly well - most shootings occurred during our various criminal investigations.

We transitioned to SIG 228 in 9mm around 1993 (?). We had a special load by Remington - 115 gr HP +P+. That was a good load in the SIG 228. Eventually we went to SIG 229 in .357 SIG. That was a a hot round and the SIG 229 was a great gun.

 

[Old cop]

This was the "Treasury Round"

The 38 Spl +P 158 gr LHP aka "FBI Load" was/is superior…

I was forced to shoot a hostage taker just beyond arms length w/the FBI Load in '83 and it dropped him, allowing the hostage to escape so I know that round works.

 

[Checkman]

My father was an Idaho State Trooper for 21 years (73-94). ISP carried the Winchester 110 grain +P+ load for 12 years (79-91) in their Model 65s and the round never failed any troopers who had to fire their revolver in the line of duty.

 

[30-30remchester]

The only real-world experience I had with 110 grain hollow points was 1 woodchuck shot at a few feet away, using a hot loaded 357 magnum and Hornady 110 grain hp. The woodchuck though only weighing a couple pounds was able to stop the bullet and it was recovered inside the chest cavity and had not even made it to the offside.

 

[Norton 750]

Here is some old school ammo. The fabled Winchester +P+ 110 JHP, the Remington 158 Grain SWCHP +P (notice the new box, since I shoot a lot of this load) and the old Norma 158 Grain SWC. The Norma is pretty hot, and since it is not soft lead like the Remington, this is what I carry in speed strips for the reload. I like the 158 Grain since most of my fixed sight revolvers are factory regulated for 158 grain bullets. I did shoot a deer once with the +P+ load out of a 4 inch Model 19. Dropped that doe like a stone.

 

[Norton 750]

Here is the Norma box a little closer.

 

[chief38]

I have a box of Winchester and a box of Federal, can't say I really like them. IMHO, they were issued to Fed's so that the anti gun public would not be screaming , Magnums, Magnums - take those Magnums away!

Other than for nostalgia, I believe there are much better options now days.

 

[Sandman4delta]

We used the +P+ load in 2 1/2 Model 19's in the 80's before the agency went to P220's in .45.
Never put one on a person but they shot great.
Very flat which helped with quals since our course included 12 rounds at 50 yards.
The cases are nickle colored and actually headstamped with +P+.
Still have some.

 

[agent00]

Thanks a lot for the interesting read. As European guy it is always interesting to read more about the 38 special loads with lighter bullet weight than the standard 158 grain rounds. Here in Europe 158 grain seems to be standard weight for 38 spc loads. Here in Austria the 38 special is more a pure round for taget shooting without any law enforcement history I think. As far as I know the standard rounds for policing here in Austria where the 32 acp before they went with the 9mm.

 

[riverrat38]

I think European police adopted the semi auto pistols about a half century before we did in the US.

73,
Rick

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have this picture in my files that I keep for data, that I found on the net.
Lots of information on the load as well as some fps & pressures.

One source stated that troopers like using the M65 for this load.

Here you go.

 

[Old Corp]

Have quite a bit of that stuck away. I was close friends with a retired ATF SA, and unfortunately he was an early Covid victim, dying a couple of years back. He gifted me many boxes of both the Winchester and Federal .38 +P+ 'Treasury load'. He'd gotten much of it from a fellow retiree who just wanted to get rid of stuff in a move.

IIRC, he told me they had used it some in S&W M640 .38 revolvers that were marked for '+P+'.

Guess I'll shoot it up one day - as far as really good SD ammo, there's plenty of other stuff out there.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

I have nearly a case of the W-W 110 gr. +P+...don't shoot it often. I've seen a couple of aluminum frame guns with blown off or fractured top straps that used this ammo..it can stretch the frames of a steel framed .38 Special revolver with excessive use. It should be relegated to .357 Magnum revolvers only.

With all that being said...my Python snubby loves this ammo! Colt with its 1:14 rate of twist is generally considered better for heavy bullets but that 2.5" Python shoots it like target wadcutters group-wise.

As far as Treasury Load or FBI Load comparisons...each agency has its own needs and protocols for ammunition selection...and they don't often match. It's pretty much a fool's errand to compare them when the choosing agency was looking for different specifications and performance.

 

[jag312]

I have a box of Winchester and a box of Federal, can't say I really like them. IMHO, they were issued to Fed's so that the anti gun public would not be screaming , Magnums, Magnums - take those Magnums away!

Other than for nostalgia, I believe there are much better options now days.

And thus we have the Smith & Wesson Model 68 revolver. As what was explained to me many decades ago, some of the flakes that invaded Sacramento when Governor Moonbeam was first elected thought that if the CHP had to shoot someone with a .357 Magnum, it would hurt too much. So the CHP had to put aside their .357 Magnums and use the Model 68 chambered in .38 Special, otherwise known as The Governor Moonbeam Highway Patrol Special.