Model 10 4-screw, a little help with dash # and barrel?

[PeteC]

So... went to a gun show intending to get a nice shiny puppy, and came back with an old stray dog. I am wondering if this looks like an authentic configuration for a 10-1, or if someone put it together from parts:

• K-Frame 4" Heavy Barrel
• 1/8" front sight
• Matte top strap
• Trigger guard screw
• Trigger shoe of some kind
• Stamped "M 101" behind the yoke (Not 10-1, but 101 with no dash, see pic)

S/N C5218xx stamped on the butt (may also be on the back of the ejector star, but not readable)

• Grips not matching

There is no s/n behind the yoke, only the model number and assembly number, and none on the barrel flat, or anywhere else I can see. 1/8" front sight, not 1/10 inch as I expected pre- Model 10-3 according to the SCSW 4th edition.

The gun was brought in at the beginning of the show by someone who said it was carried by a LEO once (dfferent grips I assume), and then bought to be a shooter and put away.

Shiny bore and clean chambers, nice shiny side plates, grip frame and trigger guard. Muzzle wear on both sides, edge wear on the cylinder. Wear down to metal, but no rust an no pitting. Looks well maintained and oiled, the remaining finish looks very nice for a workhorse Model 10.

Please feel free to be honest, I knew I bought a gun the seller took in the day before. If I came home with another Franken-gun, I'd rather know now than in six months (like last time).

I am not partial to either set of grips. If I keep it, thinking Herrett's, a set of my Ahrends from this forum, plain walnut factory targets, or rubber Uncle Mike's. If not, it will go to the Classifieds or local Armslist, with a good description, and you will have helped the next owner, LOL.

edit: corrected s/n

 

[JP@AK]

Well, at C4518xx, it should be a 10-1 shipped in 1959. It is hard to tell from your second picture, but I can't see the smooth gap at the back of the knurled portion of the extractor rod. That would mean it has right hand threads, consistent with a -1. The lack of a dash in the model number isn't that unusual. Sometimes they did end up being marked MOD 101 instead of 10-1. We've seen it before.

The only puzzling thing is the 1/8" sight. It should be 1/10" on a dash one.

Can you confirm the right hand threads?

Personally, at this point, I think you have a Model 10-1.

 

[JP@AK]

BTW a serial number on the barrel flat was discontinued a couple years before the 10-1 came out; actually before model numbers were even in use.

 

[PeteC]

BTW a serial number on the barrel flat was discontinued a couple years before the 10-1 came out; actually before model numbers were even in use.

Understood, but there is NO s/n behind the yoke either. I thought it was one or the other on a Model 10 or 15

I did not take a caliper to the front sight, but it is wider than 1/10, and it is a ramp.

Not sure what you mean by gap, but I took a pic of the end of the extractor on this Model 10 (foreground/bottom), back-to-back with a Model 15-3 (background/top) which dates 10 years later (my only other M 10 is stored right now) If that is not clear I can try in better light tomorrow.


Thanks for all the help (again... )

 

[CHARLIE699]

A 10-1 has been on my gotta-get list for a long time (first H.B.). I would have given it a good home too! Nice find

 

[JP@AK]

Understood, but there is NO s/n behind the yoke either. I thought it was one or the other on a Model 10 or 15

It wasn't until a bit later that the serial number was put on the frame in the yoke cut. What you have is pretty much normal for a Model 10-1. The serial number in that spot was at first driven by revolvers that shipped with target stocks because those covered the butt where the serial number was stamped. Putting it in the yoke cut made it visible without removing the stocks.

Not sure what you mean by gap, but I took a pic of the end of the extractor on this Model 10 (foreground/bottom), back-to-back with a Model 15-3 (background/top)

If you look carefully at the two, you will see that on the Model 15 there is a narrow smooth area right behind the knurling, smaller than the rod itself. You do not see that on the Model 10. That little smooth area indicates that the rod has left hand threads. Your Model 10-1 still has right hand threads, so there is no gap between the knurling and the rest of the rod.

 

[PeteC]

It wasn't until a bit later that the serial number was put on the frame in the yoke cut. What you have is pretty much normal for a Model 10-1. The serial number in that spot was at first driven by revolvers that shipped with target stocks because those covered the butt where the serial number was stamped. Putting it in the yoke cut made it visible without removing the stocks.

If you look carefully at the two, you will see that on the Model 15 there is a narrow smooth area right behind the knurling, smaller than the rod itself. You do not see that on the Model 10. That little smooth area indicates that the rod has left hand threads. Your Model 10-1 still has right hand threads, so there is no gap between the knurling and the rest of the rod.

I see it. Thank you!

I did not now that there was such a long period where the s/n was only stamped on the butt. My M 28 Highway Patrolman, S190xxx does have the s/n behind the yoke, so I assume this applies to K-frames only? The extractor end looks the same as on the M 10-1, so it must have the same RH thread.

 

[JP@AK]

I did not now that there was such a long period where the s/n was only stamped on the butt. My M 28 Highway Patrolman, S190xxx does have the s/n behind the yoke, so I assume this applies to K-frames only?

Unfortunately, it isn't that simple.
Up until late 1956 or early 1957, the serial number on K and N frames appeared in five places, not including the stocks. The five were the butt, the rear face of the cylinder, the barrel flat (or shroud, if the gun had one), the rear edge of the yoke and under the extractor star. Most of those locations were eliminated or phased out in 1957. After that time, the only certain location was on the butt. However, after a time, the serial number began appearing in the yoke cut, mainly for the reason I mentioned previously. An interesting example is the Model 19 Combat Magnum. That model normally shipped with target stocks, so the serial number appeared in the yoke cut. But the 2 1/2" variant came with a round butt and Magna stocks. Therefore on the round butt Model 19, the serial number was on the butt and not in the yoke cut.
Eventually, virtually all K and N frames got the serial number on both the butt and the yoke cut. But when this occurred, varied.

The extractor end looks the same as on the M 10-1, so it must have the same RH thread.

Yes, a Model 28 would have right hand threads until 1960, with the advent of the extremely rare Model 28-1. The Model 28-2, the most common variant, had left hand threads and the gap we discussed previously would be evident. The change to left hand threads occurred c. 1960-61 on all K and N frames. Note: the I and J frames after WWII all had left hand threads on the extractor rod. For some reason unknown to me, S&W made that change much earlier on the small frame revolvers.

 

[pantannojack]

Stray dog or not, it looks like a good friend to me.

 

[PeteC]

That's quite the story of serial numbers in one short paragraph! And helpful, next time I am wondering if all parts of a gun are original. I think you were also the one who suggested that the s/n on the barrel flat of my 1968 vintage M 36 were the result of factory repair on that gun, and not original.

I really do NOT search for odd things at gun shows, they just seem to follow me home.

This one does have the s/n on the back of the extractor star, I was finally able to get a pic in focus.

I may never look at an extractor the same way again...

 

[lesthemoose]

Excellent info JP@AK-thanks.

I recently picked up a 10-5 target model. (target trigger, hammer, and grips) It has an 00217 # on the yoke. I was wondering what the reason was why the # was there. Never crossed my mind.
Thanks for the info!

 

[Targets Guy]

My Model 10 no dash, s/n C4700xx, shipped 9/1959



My Model 10-1, s/n C5076xx, shipped 6/1961

 

[PeteC]

@Targets Guy:

Does your Model 10-1 have a 1/10 or 1/8 wide ramp sight? I corrected the s/n in my first post, and I assume mine shipped close to yours (C 5218xx).

I am also wondering about the grips on your 10-1. I am assuming those are the period correct grips for that gun? Are they called PC Magnas like the later version, or something more, ummmm.... creative?

 

[Targets Guy]

@Targets Guy:

Does your Model 10-1 have a 1/10 or 1/8 wide ramp sight? I corrected the s/n in my first post, and I assume mine shipped close to yours (C 5218xx).

I am also wondering about the grips on your 10-1. I am assuming those are the period correct grips for that gun? Are they called PC Magnas like the later version, or something more, ummmm.... creative?

The front sight is 1/8" wide. The stocks are original to the gun and they are indeed the Plain Clothes (PC) style magna stocks


Mine was shipped to the New York Police Dept on Jun 23,1961. They danced around your s/n but I didn't see a C5218xx on the invoice.

 

[PeteC]

That is great information, thanks!
Looks like C521xxx and C522xxx shipped in 1961, so highly likely this one did too. My complete s/n is C521826.

A friend of mine told me he has a couple boxes from that period, but the boxes may have been printed on the end with not just Model 10, but Model 10 HB. (his are for round butt and square butt, no mention of heavy barrel).

 

[Targets Guy]

That is great information, thanks!
Looks like C521xxx and C522xxx shipped in 1961, so highly likely this one did too. My complete s/n is C521826.

A friend of mine told me he has a couple boxes from that period, but the boxes may have been printed on the end with not just Model 10, but Model 10 HB. (his are for round butt and square butt, no mention of heavy barrel).

The 10-1 was a heavy barrel; all of them were. The model 10 heavy barrels were the -1, the -3, the -6, the -8 and the -10 thru -14. The other engineering changes were tapered barrels. They may not have felt the need to print barrel type on the boxes or labels unless a special order??

 

[PeteC]

The 10-1 was a heavy barrel; all of them were. The model 10 heavy barrels were the -1, the -3, the -6, the -8 and the -10 thru -14. The other engineering changes were tapered barrels. They may not have felt the need to print barrel type on the boxes or labels unless a special order??

That is a good point. They apparently did print Square or Round on the box ends.

I assume the 2" version was the same dash number as the tapered barrels?

 

[Targets Guy]

That is a good point. They apparently did print Square or Round on the box ends.

I assume the 2" version was the same dash number as the tapered barrels?

I'm not sure. My only point of reference is the Model 10 no dash I own and I think the barrel is too short to have a taper? Ever since I completed my goal of acquiring Model 10's from no dash through -10 I have sort of stopped watching Model 10's. The catalog refers to the barrels as the 4" standard, 4" heavy and 2" barrel. The 4" heavy barrel was introduced with the Model 10-1.

They were originally offered in 2, 4, 5, and 6" barrels and you could special order a 3" barrel.