9mm / .38 Special

[BC38]

.....If I am ever in a situation where I would need that many rounds then I'm not using my brain the way I should, IMHO.

Everything you said was great - right up to the point where you took a backhanded slap at people who believe it is better to have more (rather than less) ammo available when SHTF.

Trouble is no matter how well we use our brain we cannot predict when, where, or who we will be attacked by - or how many of them there will be.

Even in our own homes we aren't immune from being confronted by more than one attacker.

 

[Michaelp57]

TWO WORLD WARS

The side that won that war was equipped with the 45 ACP. The 9MM was on the losing side.

Some people just have no appreciation for The Lord's Caliber. Two world wars and one(at least that we know of) enemy fighter plane shot down, and still can't get the love it deserves. SMH

 

[Luke Duke]

The 9mm has certainly replaced the 38 as the volkspistol cartridge. Nonetheless, I don't reload for it. I really don't like getting on my knees to pick up the empty brass. Especially in the woods, snow, mud. I also find the 38 spl. brass easier to manipulate during the loading process. So, for me, the 9mm is more for business, The 38 more for relaxing range days. The practice ammo brass(or aluminum) for 9mm I leave to nature.

I pick lots of fired 9mm ( brass) in the desert where I shoot. Bring it home and reload it . Then if it gets lost I don't care. I now its always new and I don't have to worry about case length.

 

[Luke Duke]

Some people just have no appreciation for The Lord's Caliber. Two world wars and one(at least that we know of) enemy fighter plane shot down, and still can't get the love it deserves. SMH

Love my .45 ACP. I have a Ruger P345 that's an absolute tack driver inside of 25 yards.

 

[pantannojack]

Decades ago I read a book: "Point of Impact" Stephan Hunter. they made a movie of it. After the good guy gets shot by a bad guy from a 9mm, he escapes to a swamp to recover. When the bad guy's boss hears of the escape he mutters "... another guy who walked on a 9..." Seemed to be the rule rather than the exception.

 

[smoothshooter]

After years of reloading .38 Special, and just recently spending more reloading time with 9mm; I've come to the conclusion that a 9mm is nothing more ,or less than a semiautomatic .38 Special. Same velocity +P or standard velocity with any given barrel length and equal weight bullets. .38 Special may edge out a 9mm with a 170 gr Keith type bullet but that load isn't readily available for those who don't reload. Love my revolvers don't get me wrong. But with the reliability of today's semiautomatic I may retire my wheel gun as a every day carry.

While the the 9mm and .38 have some overlap ballistically, the .38 is a superior cartridge.
It works well with a wider variety of bullet weights and profiles; and when loaded with SWC or wide nosed flat points, does not require expansion ( which can be pretty pretty iffy with JHP in actual flesh and bone ) to cause good tissue damage.

Carry what you want, but know that if you are not law-enforcement or military, and fire more than 5 to 8 shots and still have not resolved the situation, it is extremely likely you will not survive the encounter, and will injure one or more innocent bystanders in the process.

 

[smoothshooter]

From a reloading standpoint the 9mm and 38 special are very different. Look at the case length and think about what happens with the 38 special if it's loaded with a position sensitive powder such as SR7625. With a position sensitive powder you can see swings in velocity as much as 300 fps., all depending on if the barrel was pointing up or down prior to firing a shot.

I will also note that if you want to puch a 125 grain 38 special to 1100 fps. you will be loading in that grey area between 38 spl and 357 Magnum.

The key is to not load with position-sensitive powder in .38.

 

[BC38]

Decades ago I read a book: "Point of Impact" Stephan Hunter. they made a movie of it. After the good guy gets shot by a bad guy from a 9mm, he escapes to a swamp to recover. When the bad guy's boss hears of the escape he mutters "... another guy who walked on a 9..." Seemed to be the rule rather than the exception.

You are aware that the book Point of Impact is fiction, right? Not exactly a definitive factual reference in this kind of discussion.

 

[BC38]

...Carry what you want, but know that if you are not law-enforcement or military, and fire more than 5 to 8 shots and still have not resolved the situation, it is extremely likely you will not survive the encounter, and will injure one or more innocent bystanders in the process.

Sounds legit - would you happen to have any credible data to back up any of those assertions? Or is that just your opinion?

 

[tmd17]

.... if you are not law-enforcement or military, and fire more than 5 to 8 shots and still have not resolved the situation, it is extremely likely you will not survive the encounter, and will injure one or more innocent bystanders in the process.

I carry a compact 1911 in .45 and I do not doubt the above assertion at all. I would, however, like to know if you have a documented source to back it up.

 

[Luke Duke]

While the the 9mm and .38 have some overlap ballistically, the .38 is a superior cartridge.
It works well with a wider variety of bullet weights and profiles; and when loaded with SWC or wide nosed flat points, does not require expansion ( which can be pretty pretty iffy with JHP in actual flesh and bone ) to cause good tissue damage.

Carry what you want, but know that if you are not law-enforcement or military, and fire more than 5 to 8 shots and still have not resolved the situation, it is extremely likely you will not survive the encounter, and will injure one or more innocent bystanders in the process.

I hope the situation never happens! But, that's why We practice, practice, practice. I just bought a Gen 5 Glock 17. Do I carry it? Not yet! Still getting comfortable with it. Carry my Ruger P345 because Im comfortable with it. Believe me if I didn't mind outside carry I would be carrying my first run Half lug Ruger GP100 6". Any thing inside of 100 yards is an easy shot with my hand loads. For that matter I'd be carrying my 4" 629 with my .44 Special +P loads in Magnum brass. That gun shoots bug holes ! But, I practice alot. I hope to god I never have to use more than 2 rounds, but an extra 15 9mm is good with me. Second rule of Zombie Land always double tap

 

[Phish]

When I am not in the woods I carry a Sig P220 DAK 45acp to mimic the DA of the revolvers. If you feel you need more than 20 rds to save your life then you are in the wrong place.

 

[mikerjf]

While I consider the 38sp and 9 pretty equal, the 9 always seems to hold more and kick less.

 

[Forrest r]

It's good to see both 120+ year old cartridges still have a good following.

 

[Buzzzer]

Everything you said was great - right up to the point where you took a backhanded slap at people who believe it is better to have more (rather than less) ammo available when SHTF.

Trouble is no matter how well we use our brain we cannot predict when, where, or who we will be attacked by - or how many of them there will be.

Even in our own homes we aren't immune from being confronted by more than one attacker.

I, obviously, agree with everything that you stated. I have always taught myself, and others, that situational awareness is first and foremost, above all, over everything else, no matter what. My intent was not to "backhanded slap" anyone over the fact that they may want to carry more rounds. I stated that this was the mode of thinking for "me" as it helps keep me on my toes..., always condition yellow, even in my own home...

 

[smithra_66]

After years of reloading .38 Special, and just recently spending more reloading time with 9mm; I've come to the conclusion that a 9mm is nothing more ,or less than a semiautomatic .38 Special. Same velocity +P or standard velocity with any given barrel length and equal weight bullets. .38 Special may edge out a 9mm with a 170 gr Keith type bullet but that load isn't readily available for those who don't reload. Love my revolvers don't get me wrong. But with the reliability of today's semiautomatic I may retire my wheel gun as a every day carry.

On the top end the 38 Spl is MUCH more powerful than the 9mm. In practical usage, yes, they are pretty comparable. Out of a revolver the 38 can obviously be loaded to a much wider range...the 9 has to be kep inside of a tighter pressure window so that the gun operates...but in the middle they are very similar.

38 can be loaded lighter and hotter which is why I usually like it better...plus I just like revolvers better than auto pistols.

And you're right, 9mm is the current "defacto" defensive hangun round in the USA, just like the 38 special used to be.

At one time revolvers were the top choice for serious work, and the 38 spl was the top choice for a round that is "good enough" for defensive work.

Today, semi-autos are the top choice for serious work and the 9mm is "good enough" for defensive work.

 

[smithra_66]

The side that won that war was equipped with the 45 ACP. The 9MM was on the losing side.

And the winning side had the 38 Special as their #2 handgun caliber.

 

[smithra_66]

In the lighter bullet weights (ex. 124/125 grain) the 9mm in comparable barrel lengths will have a 200-300 FPS edge over the .38 Special. Add some weight (147/158) and they are similar in velocity. This is for standard, not boutique loadings.

In factory loads yes.

The reloader can easily exceed the 9mm in all bullet weights with the 38 special in an appropriate gun.

I mean, just look at the two cases. The 9mm is quite vertically challenged

 

[smithra_66]

for standard 9x19 you can get very similar.

VELOCITY

but chamber pressure is ALOT higher with the 9mm kids

A Keith 173 gr. SWC running at 1250 - 1300 fps will get into the 40k + psi range.

No 9mm Luger is capable of that.

 

[smoothshooter]

Sounds legit - would you happen to have any credible data to back up any of those assertions? Or is that just your opinion?

Of course I have no " data ".
That is not the sort of thing I would have kept records of. Nor anyone else I personally know. But I have been around a good while, and have always paid close attention to this and other things that go on in the world related to the subject at hand.
Almost without exception, the more shots fired, the more shots missed.
How many instances are you aware of where an ordinary citizen needed 16 or 19 or 35 shots to responsibly solve a self defense problem without endangering other uninvolved people?
As for myself, I hope carrying less ammo reminds me to use the ammo I have more carefully.
I read about those ( non-military or law enforcement ) that carry an automatic pistol and a total of 3 high capacity magazines every day.
That is their right.
But if they spend time in places where the threat is that high, perhaps they need to make some lifestyle changes.