.40 vs 9mm

[Engine49guy]

That was an interesting thread,
I have two SW PC shorty 40's and a BHP in 40.
They don't get shot much because I have tons of cheap 9mm fmj , the 40 was interesting alternative back in the day but you do sacrifice capacity (8 vs 12 iirc?) It's been a while since I've shot .40 SW.

On a side note IIRC the original necked down .30 Luger round was not quite up to the task so they simply removed the neck and the 9mm Luger was born.

 

[Heinz]

I would not belittle the 30 Luger. The Swiss used it for a long time and it is one of my favorites. The German military wanted a larger caliber, they did not believe in the higher velocity smaller diameter round. You need to shoot a 30 Luger to appreciate its qualities.

 

[Racer X]

I would not belittle the 30 Luger. The Swiss used it for a long time and it is one of my favorites. The German military wanted a larger caliber, they did not believe in the higher velocity smaller diameter round. You need to shoot a 30 Luger to appreciate its qualities.

how close are they to the new 30 Super Carry?

 

[Heinz]

The 30 Luger has a 93 gr bullet at 1200 fps for 304 ft ponds of energy. Just over 34,000 PSI pressure

The 30 Super carry has 1250 fps with a 100 grain bullet for 347 ft pounds of energy. Just over 54,000 PSI pressure
out of a 4" barrel

I suspect the Luger data is a 4 1/2" (120 cm) barrel

 

[Engine49guy]

Had a .30 luger years ago, pricey ammo, sold it and bought one in 9mm...
Iirc the problem was overpenetration and tiny bullet, on the other hand had a broomhandle in .30 Mauser (totally different round) was told by someone.... oh u can shoot the cheap copper washed 7.62x25 Tokarov ammo in it.....oh no...big muzzle flash, that stuff was hot n made to cycle PPSH bolts in full auto.

 

[robvious]

ok.. just like 9mm, 40S&W is better now too...
end of discussion...

 

[much ado]

Per Sig220.45

"They have. The FBI's current issue 9mm is the Critical Defense 135 grain +P. There is also a Critical Defense .40 with a 175 grain bullet of the same design".

Question: Is it "Critical Defense" or "Critical Duty" ? . Realize Hornady likes to throw 'Critical' around but seemed to think that the "Duty" round was more tailored to LE. ??

 

[sigp220.45]

Per Sig220.45

"They have. The FBI's current issue 9mm is the Critical Defense 135 grain +P. There is also a Critical Defense .40 with a 175 grain bullet of the same design".

Question: Is it "Critical Defense" or "Critical Duty" ? . Realize Hornady likes to throw 'Critical' around but seemed to think that the "Duty" round was more tailored to LE. ??

My bad, you're right. Its Critical Duty. Thanks!

 

[URIT]

Read that another driver in the switch to 9mm was it being more easily controlled by the increasing number of women who were entering law enforcement.

It's not really the caliber but the pistol grip design that doesn't work for many women or men with small or medium sized hands.

The politicos that make the decisions on what the department will carry fail to recognize that one size does not fit all.

 

[RoyM52]

I think that the agencies just wanted new firearms.

Easier to get them if the caliber is somehow deemed inferior in some way. Sometimes it is inferior stopping power, and sometimes it's shooting cost , and sometimes it's some other trumped up reason. But the end result is that new guns are ordered and someone makes a bundle off the contract {possibly someone involved or their Brother in Law etc}

If the caliber is to blame, then there won't be any rebuilt , loose guns first issued many many years ago re-issued. Isn't it fun, everyone gets new and someone has a windfall

It has been done this way for years.[

 

[sigp220.45]

The cost of the guns is chump change compared to the ammo costs. Glock used to basically swap new guns for old ones at very little cost just to keep them in cop holsters. Even if a department pays $400 for a one-time purchase of a gun that is nothing compared to feeding it every quarter for 20 years.

 

[Hair Trigger]

It makes me wonder if the .40 S&W will see a slight resurgence due to the popularity of the 10mm (?).

That's really funny, if you think about it. The 10mm's "demise" came about partly because of the immediate popularity of the .40S&W, or at least by the LE group that thought so highly of the 10mm at the beginning. .40 hung around and then became passe' and 9mm was king again. Now 10mm is on the rise, I can only imagine .40 will make a comeback, too.

What goes around comes around, again and again. Much of it is advertising hype, to sell you on something else that's supposedly better and then to sell you something you don't have yet. I've been shooting 10mm since 1992 and have never thought less of it, and I've been shooting .40S&W since a few years after that, and it is my preferred EDC cartridge. I see the pair like I see .38Spl and .357 Magnum, which I've been shooting since the 1970's. Each has a niche and its own purpose.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

The bullets worked.. well. So no change was made.

Complete and utter nonsense.

 

[Echo40]

We've seemed to have strayed.
My question was why 9mm projectiles have been improved but 40s seemingly have not.

I already told you, 9mm was improved to meet FBI Specifications whereas .40 S&W was designed to meet those specifications to begin with.

If you don't already know, the FBI specifications for small arms duty cartridges is that they penetrate a minimum of 12" and a maximum of 18" through 4 layers of heavy denim in Ballistics Gel which has been calibrated to simulate human muscle tissue.

These specifications were set by the FBI based on analysis of the Miami Dade County Shootout of 1986 in which two bank robbers got into a shootout with both local law enforcement as well as Federal Agents armed with .38 Special Revolvers and 9mm Pistols which failed to stop the bank robbers.
The .40 S&W cartridge was designed based on those specifications, ergo it already meets them exactly and any attempts to "improve" on the cartridge would be pointless as it would most likely result in it surpassing FBI Specifications, thus rendering it a liability.

Besides, there's already an improved .40 S&W, it's called 10mm Auto, which the .40 S&W is actually a smaller, deliberately less powerful version of because full-power 10mm Auto exceeded FBI Specifications.

CASE CLOSED

 

[pharmer]

I didn't feel undergunned with .38 spl, various HP bullet types. I don't feel undergunned with 9mm (since 1994), 124 gr Fed HST currently. I own a few .45's, .40's gone in caliber "simplification" not animus. Folks should utilize what feels "comforting." Joe

 

[Paul in Nevada]

9mm was improved to meet FBI Specifications whereas .40 S&W was designed to meet those specifications to begin with.

And any improvements to 9mm have also been applied to 40S&W. Around and around we go.

 

[wood714]

We've seemed to have strayed.
My question was why 9mm projectiles have been improved but 40s seemingly have not.

I've got a lot of Winchester Ranger T ammo in 9mm and 40. Got one box of Gold Dots in both calibers too. I've been under the impression that both types of ammo are kinda advanced in the art of putting holes in people.

Don't want to ever get shot by either, but If I had to make a choice...I'd pick the 9mm.

I've heard a lot of people say the 9mm has been improved, but if the same ammo is available in 40, I don't see how it could be better.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

and yet a 158-170 grain kieth type swc at 1100 fps wil out perform both...

Yep! And even MORE so out of a lever action with, say, an 18.5" barrel and a 9-shot capacity...!

Cheers!

P.S. Not extremely comfortable (or, holsterable?) for concealed carry, though...

 

[petepeterson]

I already told you, 9mm was improved to meet FBI Specifications whereas .40 S&W was designed to meet those specifications to begin with.



CASE CLOSED

Look at all the bandwith we could've saved with a two-post thread.

 

[biku324]

And only 32 years after the 40 was introduced.