Why the fussing about action hold open

[Fastbolt]

The slide stop lever assembly/feature can be useful for more than one thing.

In armorer classes it's commonly taught that a bench check of magazine spring's tension is to take the EMPTY gun and each EMPTY magazine, insert the magazine into the grip with the slide forward, and then manually run the slide to the rear as fast as humanly possible. If the slide doesn't catch and lock back on the empty magazine, the usual suspect is a magazine spring approaching the end of its useful service life.

Away from the bench, meaning out on the firing line, the failure of the magazine spring to lock back the slide on an empty magazine is often an early sign of a weakening magazine spring. The 'next sign' can be feeding failures, usually toward the end of the magazine load (when the spring is at its least compressed state), as the spring can't keep up with the slide and keep the round stack pushed up quickly enough to feed the next round.

If nothing else, having a slide stop lever can be helpful in diagnosing some issues.

However, in the inevitable tradition of TANSTAAFL, the slide stop lever (which is an assembly in some pistols) can also introduce some issues if it becomes damaged, worn, etc.

I enjoy having the slide stop feature on all of my pistols ... but I don't mind my LCP's not having it. The pistol is just so small that it's hard enough to manipulate the lever manually, to lock it open. Besides, I treat my LCP's like I treat my J-frames, in the regard the I know I have a very limited number of rounds available before I'll need to reload.

Comes to that, since I carried a 6-shot service revolver on-duty and a Colt Commander off-duty (7rd mags in those days), I accepted that firing even a few rounds would come close to running things dry, and I acted accordingly.

 

[Old cop]

As a leftie I learned to slingshot the slide when we transitioned from our old revolvers to the Glock 9MM. I still slingshot when I qualify for LEOSA every summer.

 

[RCL-09]

I can attest, from first hand experience, that you'll not know how many rounds you fired in a gunfight.

I don't know a single officer that has accurately counted their rounds fired when involved in an OIS.

 

[ZGrand]

I understand counting rounds and leaving one in the chamber. I do this myself at the range (sometimes but not all the time). I don't understand why you would leave one round in the magazine, though. Could someone please explain? (I'm not trying to be argumentative - just trying to learn).

 

[Heinz]

I understand counting rounds and leaving one in the chamber. I do this myself at the range (sometimes but not all the time). I don't understand why you would leave one round in the magazine, though. Could someone please explain? (I'm not trying to be argumentative - just trying to learn).

In case you have miscounted

 

[LVSteve]

I've never been in combat or experienced a shooting in the civilian** world, but I'd wager the number of people who actually count their rounds and perform "tactical" reloads is extremely small in those circumstances. My buddy was told by an instructor at a course that he knew of no documented case of a "tactical" reload during a non-military shooting event.

** I include all non-military shooting, including OIS events.

As for the slide not locking back, most of the complaints I see are the result using low powered range ammo or powder puff reloads. Take one European pistol sprung for 9mm NATO, add 115gr FMJ range fodder and see what happens.

After ammo, the primary cause of lock back failure is riding the slide lock. Thank goodness smartphones have a video function so you can show Mr "No I'm not!" that he is. Then there are those who fit recoil springs fit for a lifted pickup. You know who you are.

 

[RCL-09]

I've never been in combat or experienced a shooting in the civilian** world, but I'd wager the number of people who actually count their rounds and perform "tactical" reloads is extremely small in those circumstances. My buddy was told by an instructor at a course that he knew of no documented case of a "tactical" reload during a non-military shooting event.

** I include all non-military shooting, including OIS events.

As for the slide not locking back, most of the complaints I see are the result using low powered range ammo or powder puff reloads. Take one European pistol sprung for 9mm NATO, add 115gr FMJ range fodder and see what happens.

After ammo, the primary cause of lock back failure is riding the slide lock. Thank goodness smartphones have a video function so you can show Mr "No I'm not!" that he is. Then there are those who fit recoil springs fit for a lifted pickup. You know who you are.

I've seen dozens of videos of OIS where an officer does a tactical reload

 

[Fastbolt]

I've seen dozens of videos of OIS where an officer does a tactical reload

Sure. Seeing cops do something for which they've been trained is one thing.

Finding examples where a cop needed to perform a 'tactical reload' (reload w/retention, etc) that was instrumental in surviving the OIS? Not so easy.

 

[RCL-09]

Sire. Seeing cops do something for which they've been trained is one thing.

Finding examples where a cop needed to perform a 'tactical reload' (reload w/retention, etc) that was instrumental in surviving the OIS? Not so easy.

The quote that was addressed.

My buddy was told by an instructor at a course that he knew of no documented case of a "tactical" reload during a non-military shooting event.

 

[Fastbolt]

The quote that was addressed.

My buddy was told by an instructor at a course that he knew of no documented case of a "tactical" reload during a non-military shooting event.

Well, anecdotally speaking, the instructors at my former agency were never able to find anyone (instructors or otherwise) at any other agencies, including any shared experiences shared in outside training venues, where a 'tac-reload' had been critical for someone surviving a LE OIS, either.

Doesn't mean that it wasn't a 'thing' among some LE trainers in the 90's.

Teaching it as a higher priority skill resulted in a lot of folks being able to do it without having to think about it, too, but it was eventually re-evaluated and thought that it took up time probably better invested in focusing on other, demonstrably critical skills. There are only so many hours available in the average training class and qual session, especially when it comes to looking at the cost per hour investment. Emphasizing manipulative skills which have been observed to be more useful, more often, and more critical to surviving a shooting incident offer 'more bang for the buck', so to speak.

I remember when trainers and students would spend time arguing whether it was better to do a 'tactical reload' while discarding the partial magazine, or retaining it, and the argument usually revolved around the extra manipulations required to retain the partially full magazine(s). Okay, tucking it away in case the extra ammo might be needed is all well and good, and losing (discarding) a partially full mag to land in some puddle or bush, in the dark of the night, might make trying to find it impractical (and dangerous) when things are chaotic.

Still, from the training perspective, being able to teach and instill the most practical techniques in the times allotted have to be considered. Sometimes some more complicated techniques can be left for more advanced training (or tactical weapons updates, in-service training, etc).

 

[RCL-09]

Well, anecdotally speaking, the instructors at my former agency were never able to find anyone (instructors or otherwise) at any other agencies, including any shared experiences shared in outside training venues, where a 'tac-reload' had been critical for someone surviving a LE OIS, either.

Doesn't mean that it wasn't a 'thing' among some LE trainers in the 90's.

Teaching it as a higher priority skill resulted in a lot of folks being able to do it without having to think about it, too, but it was eventually re-evaluated and thought that it took up time probably better invested in focusing on other, demonstrably critical skills. There are only so many hours available in the average training class and qual session, especially when it comes to looking at the cost per hour investment. Emphasizing manipulative skills which have been observed to be more useful, more often, and more critical to surviving a shooting incident offer 'more bang for the buck', so to speak.

I remember when trainers and students would spend time arguing whether it was better to do a 'tactical reload' while discarding the partial magazine, or retaining it, and the argument usually revolved around the extra manipulations required to retain the partially full magazine(s). Okay, tucking it away in case the extra ammo might be needed is all well and good, and losing (discarding) a partially full mag to land in some puddle or bush, in the dark of the night, might make trying to find it impractical (and dangerous) when things are chaotic.

Still, from the training perspective, being able to teach and instill the most practical techniques in the times allotted have to be considered. Sometimes some more complicated techniques can be left for more advanced training (or tactical weapons updates, in-service training, etc).

None of which has anything to do with what I said.

 

[Fastbolt]

None of which has anything to do with what I said.

I couldn't grasp the relevance of your post either, and was trying to just respond to what I thought was the topic of it.

 

[RCL-09]

I couldn't grasp the relevance of your post either, and was trying to just respond to what I thought was the topic of it.

Nowhere did I ever state, claim or imply that:

"...a cop needed to perform a 'tactical reload' (reload w/retention, etc) that was instrumental in surviving the OIS..."

It really is quite simple.

 

[pasound]

My semis have a variety of capacities. I have 10, 12, and 15 round mags for my 6906. 12's and 15's for my 365XL's. 8's for my 3913, 10's for my SCCY. 7's and 8's for my RIA 1911. 10's for my American 45. I want the slide to lock back so I know it's time to dump and reload.

 

[Fastbolt]

Nowhere did I ever state, claim or imply that:

"...a cop needed to perform a 'tactical reload' (reload w/retention, etc) that was instrumental in surviving the OIS..."

It really is quite simple.

So then what's the relevance of you posting that you've seen online videos of cops doing tac-reloads? Are you inferring that doing such reloads means they don't have to count - or weren't counting - rounds fired during incidents?

FWIW, my posts were actually agreeing with your comments about your friend's comments.

I merely mentioned and expanded on how the topic raised by your friend.

I apologize.

 

[RCL-09]

So then what's the relevance of you posting that you've seen online videos of cops doing tac-reloads? Are you inferring that doing such reloads means they don't have to count - or weren't counting - rounds fired during incidents?

FWIW, my posts were actually agreeing with your comments about your friend's comments.

I merely mentioned and expanded on how the topic raised by your friend.

I apologize.

Again, it is really simple.

LVSteve said, and I quote:

My buddy was told by an instructor at a course that he knew of no documented case of a "tactical" reload during a non-military shooting event.

To which I replied, and again, I quote:

"I've seen dozens of videos of OIS where an officer does a tactical reload"

Nowhere did I ever state, claim or imply that: "...a cop needed to perform a 'tactical reload' (reload w/retention, etc) that was instrumental in surviving the OIS..."

Nowhere did I state or cite any o my "friends comments."

I was merely pointing out that it does happen.

So your posts to me are confusing particularly because as you said you "posts were actually agreeing with" me

Sorry brother, but I'm just not getting it... and no need to apologize for a friendly conversation.

I did not mean to come across as being upset.

 

[Fastbolt]

Again, it is really simple.

LVSteve said, and I quote:

My buddy was told by an instructor at a course that he knew of no documented case of a "tactical" reload during a non-military shooting event.

To which I replied, and again, I quote:

"I've seen dozens of videos of OIS where an officer does a tactical reload"

Nowhere did I ever state, claim or imply that: "...a cop needed to perform a 'tactical reload' (reload w/retention, etc) that was instrumental in surviving the OIS..."

Nowhere did I state or cite any o my "friends comments."

I was merely pointing out that it does happen.

So your posts to me are confusing particularly because as you said you "posts were actually agreeing with" me

Sorry brother, but I'm just not getting it... and no need to apologize for a friendly conversation.

I did not mean to come across as being upset.

Uh, okay. I was skimming through the posts too quickly to catch in one of the posts that you'd re-quoted another poster. Sigh.

 

[w18764560]

I would hope most every 'good guy with a gun' would be more focused, training AND real life, on HITS AND SURVIVING than counting your dang rounds fired!!! If any counting needs doing it should be on Bad guys rounds fired and or number of assailants.
JM2C worth

 

[Muss Muggins]

To quote Mike Tyson: "E'erbody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth . . . "

 

[BAM-BAM]

To quote Mike Tyson: "E'erbody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth . . . "

My mind will be focused on tactics and situational awareness.......

Did I fire 5 rounds or was it 6.... in all this confusion I forget myself..... do you feel lucky?

Personally I don't want to have to be lucky!!!!!!