S&W Model 10-5 PPC - info needed
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Ivan the Butcher
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I think the gunsmith signed it at the right side/front end of the rib.
Ivan
Ivan
There were a lot of gunsmiths building PPC revolvers back in the day, some being true professionals renowned for the quality of their work, others very much amateurs whose end product was, well, wanting. It's hard to tell from appearance alone into which category your particular revolver falls. Here's an article on this topic: American Handgunner The NRA PPC Course Of Fire - American Handgunner
swagmeister
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Looks like "winged or winger" plus P4P on right front side of the rib on the barrel. Have no clue who that gunsmith would be if that is indeed a gunsmith's mark. A lot of PPC guns made during the 80's were not marked. Yours is unusual in that it has the front ejector rod catch built into the underside of the custom barrel; most of the ones I've seen have a ball crane lock installed to secure the top of the yoke into the frame. Still a nice looking gun.
I can't venture a guess as to who made it, but I can dispense with one apparent clue.
The word 'winged' on the BoMar rib labels the wings on either side of the front sight. This one piece assembly is removable from the rib and a separate front sight can be substituted if desired.
This revolver appears to have had very little use, so should be a good shooter.
BTW, it's PPC, not PCC.
The word 'winged' on the BoMar rib labels the wings on either side of the front sight. This one piece assembly is removable from the rib and a separate front sight can be substituted if desired.
This revolver appears to have had very little use, so should be a good shooter.
BTW, it's PPC, not PCC.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
My last PPC revolver was built by Bill Davis of Sacramento. That would have been 1990.
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SGT ROCK 11B
Member
That really stood out to me too. I never seen it done that way.
Occasionally the builder would engrave some clue on the bottom side of the barrel where it would be obscured when the cylinder was closed. I know that Royce Weddle stamped there so that's always a place I look. I would obviously also remove the grips and look for clues there.
This is not very helpful but... I can tell you almost for certain that it's not a Travis Strahan build. Yes, I realize that this is akin to walking up to a haystack and pointing and saying that THIS straw is not the needle you are searching for.
Only saying this because I am fortunate to own two examples of Strahan PPC builds and he did a number of things that are very easy to spot and leave no question as to who did the work.
I can also say that one thing about this revolver is very much out of the ordinary for a PPC revolver and that is the contour of the trigger. Nearly all of them made use of a thinner trigger with absolutely no grooves, specifically made for DA use all of the time, not the super wide cheese grater "full target" trigger that yours shows.
Looks like a runner to me! As I will guess you may already know... if this revolver is set up in the very typical style for 70's/80's PPC then you will almost surely experience light primer strikes with factory ammo or any handloads made with hard cup primers. Nearly all of these custom builds were set up quite specifically for the Federal 100 small pistol primer.
That gives you a fork in the road. If you are a handloader, feed this revolver lead bullets and the Federal primers and you should be thrilled with it. If you are absolutely not a handloader, you will probably need to shim or replace the strain screw which has almost surely been cut down.
NOTE that if you choose to made this revolver shoot 100% of the ammo on the market in double action... you will lose that absolutely ridiculously light and silky smooth double action trigger stroke.
Years and years ago, I shimmed the strain screw of a Bill Davis build that I have and it worked with everything but wasn't as enjoyable so I put it all back and now I just feed it the Federal 100 as Davis had intended.
Report back with more pictures and a range report and CONGRATS!
This is not very helpful but... I can tell you almost for certain that it's not a Travis Strahan build. Yes, I realize that this is akin to walking up to a haystack and pointing and saying that THIS straw is not the needle you are searching for.
Only saying this because I am fortunate to own two examples of Strahan PPC builds and he did a number of things that are very easy to spot and leave no question as to who did the work.
I can also say that one thing about this revolver is very much out of the ordinary for a PPC revolver and that is the contour of the trigger. Nearly all of them made use of a thinner trigger with absolutely no grooves, specifically made for DA use all of the time, not the super wide cheese grater "full target" trigger that yours shows.
Looks like a runner to me! As I will guess you may already know... if this revolver is set up in the very typical style for 70's/80's PPC then you will almost surely experience light primer strikes with factory ammo or any handloads made with hard cup primers. Nearly all of these custom builds were set up quite specifically for the Federal 100 small pistol primer.
That gives you a fork in the road. If you are a handloader, feed this revolver lead bullets and the Federal primers and you should be thrilled with it. If you are absolutely not a handloader, you will probably need to shim or replace the strain screw which has almost surely been cut down.
NOTE that if you choose to made this revolver shoot 100% of the ammo on the market in double action... you will lose that absolutely ridiculously light and silky smooth double action trigger stroke.
Years and years ago, I shimmed the strain screw of a Bill Davis build that I have and it worked with everything but wasn't as enjoyable so I put it all back and now I just feed it the Federal 100 as Davis had intended.
Report back with more pictures and a range report and CONGRATS!
A premier and highly regarded fabricator of this genre. The previous year he had a hand in the production of the 686 National Match
Some builder's marked the barrel like this one. This one was built by my Chief very early on, and I believe was owned my another officer. I saw it during a late night computer search on the Forum something like ten or more years ago, long before I was on the forum. After joining a couple years ago I reached out to the owner who had been looking for the builder of the gun and it now resides with me, back in the family sort of speak.
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His name was Walt Cabell (Chief Game Warden) and during the peak of PPC shooting here in Vermont he made a lot of comp guns for his warden's and many others. They were pretty straight forward with a model 10 frame, round bull barrel, sight rib, trigger stop, chamfered chambers and an action job. Can't say he always did it, but most were marked with his name as I recall. I'm sure there are others floating around in New England.
The barrel should be marked "Cabell" on the right side, as is mine.
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I had one that I had built by John Towle of TNT Arms in North Conway NH in 1978. I had built it on a Model 15. 6" Douglas bbl, full length Bomar rib, polished action, slickest trigger you ever felt.
I got the ide from Gun World Magazine when they had apicture of his work on the front cover. The writer Bob Zwirz did an interview with him.
For the most part John did bolt action pistols in any caliber you wanted.
Number one son asked to have it 6 months ago, so I gave it to him.
That thing could shoot
I got the ide from Gun World Magazine when they had apicture of his work on the front cover. The writer Bob Zwirz did an interview with him.
For the most part John did bolt action pistols in any caliber you wanted.
Number one son asked to have it 6 months ago, so I gave it to him.
That thing could shoot
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A couple more comments that might add some clarification regarding the initial OP post.
The add-on anchorage for the extractor rod on OP's revolver was typical of early PPC builds. My two PPC builds, on Ruger Six series frames, were done by Greg Roberts, then of Santa Cruz, CA, starting in 1977. He used the same extractor rod anchorage system. Not too long after, Bill Davis developed and marketed his add-on underlugs which were set up for ball/detent latches. Greg retrofitted both of my revolvers using these Davis underlugs.
I am not completely certain, but I think early on in the transition from stock to customized PPC revolvers, most shooters still shot SA at the fifty yard line. As time passed and the greater stability of the muzzle heavy bull barrels was recognized, competitors started turning to shooting the entire course DA. I decided to do this too. It took me 3000 rounds of intense practice to make that conversion, but after that there was no turning back. If this recollection is accurate, that would explain why grooved wide triggers were being used on early PPC revolvers, which I think this one is. Somewhere along the line I switched from grooved to smooth triggers, because in DA the trigger finger has to slide on the trigger.
On hammer springs and light hits. Jim Clark, legendary gunsmith from Louisiana, liked to work on and use Ruger firearms. Since the Rugers used coil hammer springs, he designed an adjustable mainspring unit. He machined a threaded cylindrical strut with a nut at one end. By turning the nut one could adjust the strength of the mainspring to as light (or heavy) as the shooter desired. But one could go too far. I lost ten points in a match from a failure to fire on an otherwise outstanding target. Back home I tried that round again, and again no fire. I tightened the adjusting nut 1/2 turn, buttoned the revolver back up and fired again. This time it fired. Valuable lesson learned the hard way about thoroughly testing rounds to be used.
I think the BoMar sight ribs were probably some of the earliest ribs available for PPC builds. Early on Ron Power would only use these, because of their quality. Later on ribs came out allowing instant front sight height adjustment from seven yards out to fifty yards using a neck hold. Much quicker and easier than carrying a screwdriver out on the line, which I did.
The BoMar rib, wide grooved trigger, and method of extractor rod anchorage all lead me to believe this to be a fairly early era PPC revolver.
That still does not give a clue as to who might have built it though. I hope OP will take it out, use a steady rest, and give us an idea of how it groups at fifty yards. It certainly does appear to have the potential.
The add-on anchorage for the extractor rod on OP's revolver was typical of early PPC builds. My two PPC builds, on Ruger Six series frames, were done by Greg Roberts, then of Santa Cruz, CA, starting in 1977. He used the same extractor rod anchorage system. Not too long after, Bill Davis developed and marketed his add-on underlugs which were set up for ball/detent latches. Greg retrofitted both of my revolvers using these Davis underlugs.
I am not completely certain, but I think early on in the transition from stock to customized PPC revolvers, most shooters still shot SA at the fifty yard line. As time passed and the greater stability of the muzzle heavy bull barrels was recognized, competitors started turning to shooting the entire course DA. I decided to do this too. It took me 3000 rounds of intense practice to make that conversion, but after that there was no turning back. If this recollection is accurate, that would explain why grooved wide triggers were being used on early PPC revolvers, which I think this one is. Somewhere along the line I switched from grooved to smooth triggers, because in DA the trigger finger has to slide on the trigger.
On hammer springs and light hits. Jim Clark, legendary gunsmith from Louisiana, liked to work on and use Ruger firearms. Since the Rugers used coil hammer springs, he designed an adjustable mainspring unit. He machined a threaded cylindrical strut with a nut at one end. By turning the nut one could adjust the strength of the mainspring to as light (or heavy) as the shooter desired. But one could go too far. I lost ten points in a match from a failure to fire on an otherwise outstanding target. Back home I tried that round again, and again no fire. I tightened the adjusting nut 1/2 turn, buttoned the revolver back up and fired again. This time it fired. Valuable lesson learned the hard way about thoroughly testing rounds to be used.
I think the BoMar sight ribs were probably some of the earliest ribs available for PPC builds. Early on Ron Power would only use these, because of their quality. Later on ribs came out allowing instant front sight height adjustment from seven yards out to fifty yards using a neck hold. Much quicker and easier than carrying a screwdriver out on the line, which I did.
The BoMar rib, wide grooved trigger, and method of extractor rod anchorage all lead me to believe this to be a fairly early era PPC revolver.
That still does not give a clue as to who might have built it though. I hope OP will take it out, use a steady rest, and give us an idea of how it groups at fifty yards. It certainly does appear to have the potential.
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Mine had the latch and extractor rod milled into the 1.2" diameter barrel.
OP
MuayThaiJJ
Member
Epic post of info. thanks dude and yes I plan to.
Not that it matters much, but this is a 1962 S&W
stoneke
Member
I agree that the wide target style trigger is an unusual feature on a PPC gun, where double action is the norm. Most shooters used the .265 or .300 width trigger. This piece appears to be a basic gun - nothing really highly refined. You should enjoy shooting it.
My first PPC gun was built by a Reserve Officer machinist who pretty much did it exactly like yours. It had a Mascot rib, where the whole rib moved left or right from a front adjustment screw and elevated in the rear from another screw. I still have the rib and barrel.
I agree that due to the rib and other things yours is probably a very early build. Im sure it will shoot fine.
I did know one very good shooter Sam Yarosh from the Secret Service who shot D/A with a wide trigger. said it was like a nice lever..
Still have 4 or 5 old PPC revolvers I dont shoot much anymore. Two Davis guns built by Craig Marivio ?S/P. A nice ATF/ Alan Tanaka Firearms build and an older Davis gun. I can never get that one upright!!!
I agree that due to the rib and other things yours is probably a very early build. Im sure it will shoot fine.
I did know one very good shooter Sam Yarosh from the Secret Service who shot D/A with a wide trigger. said it was like a nice lever..
Still have 4 or 5 old PPC revolvers I dont shoot much anymore. Two Davis guns built by Craig Marivio ?S/P. A nice ATF/ Alan Tanaka Firearms build and an older Davis gun. I can never get that one upright!!!
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