SELF DEFENSE, HOME DEFENSE, COMMON SENSE

My cameras give me those precious few seconds advance warning (especially at night) when I am home, worth every penny to me.

I can get ready and dial up 911. I live in a development ( an island amongst the surrounding jurisdictions) that gets a three agency response, Town of Wake Forest, Town of Rolesville, NCSHP, so someone should be there asap.
 
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I disagree with "Security cameras and systems are an effective deterrent". I have seen too many crimes on video recordings! Many times criminals are not that smart! Either they are wearing a hoodie, a full face mask or other disguise or simply don't care! Sometimes they don't even realize there are cameras in the area - but lighting conditions are poor.

Security cameras simply catch the act on video - they are not really a deterrent. A woman can get raped and the act captured, but she still got raped! Will the criminal get caught and convicted because of that video? - - Probably not. I had business for many years, had break in's, cars crash into my buildings, items stolen, etc. Each and every time the police reviewed the video I was told, "sorry sir, the video isn't really clear, there are no face on shots, not decisive enough, etc." and have proved to be completely useless in solving the crime. How many times a week (on the news) do we see stores being robbed, people being shot, windows being smashed, criminals beating the **** out of elderly folks, - video's don't stop that and IMHO are at best only a deterrent to a very minor degree. Few have been punished!

Yes, I have always had video cameras - still do, but their presence is marginal at best and have proven to me many times to be mostly useless. Still better than nothing I suppose as there might be that a handful of criminals might shy away. That said, I suppose there could be some minor value - if nothing else, to see who is ringing your doorbell.

NOTE: Sometimes a video can capture someone defending themselves with a firearm, knife or other weapon and that can actually be used against the innocent victim. Hmmmm.

There are down sides to everything.

You remind me of the folks who tried to claim seat belts were dangerous because the could trap you in a burning vehicle. They'd cite one of the far left hand tail examples where an unbelted individual was thrown clear of a wreck while the belted individual died, and then claim that 1 in a 1000 fluke occurrence proved their case.

Same thing with motor cycle riders and helmets. Yes, some riders wearing improperly designed or improperly worn helmets managed to break their necks in accidents where they might not have without a helmet. But again they ignore the 99.9% of people who both don't break their necks and avoid a TBI.

As a VR Counselor and tax payer it annoyed me to no end when a motorcycle rider adamant on asserting his "right" to ride without a helmet would later come in with a traumatic brain injury after a motor cycle accident and want me to use tax dollars to rehabilitate him so he could go back to work. Nothing like paying tax dollars for an avoidable injury acquired by someone in the "but mah rights!" crowd. It seems some folks are against bellying up to the public trough, until their irresponsible actions make it advantageous, then they are first in line.

Re read my post and consider the meaning of the word "deterrence". No, security cameras and security systems won't prevent everything, and they won't do much good in deterring a criminal too clueless to notice them before hand.

But competent criminals will notice them - and target another home.

Even with incompetent criminals the video captured does make it easier to apprehend the criminal afterwards. While it might not help you or your as victims, it will help get the criminal off the street and prevent future crimes with future victims.

Finally, at no point did I suggest or state that security cameras and security systems should be your only layer of deterrence or defense:
- Fences;
- good exterior lighting;
- trimming or removing shrubs that might provide concealment for a thief trying to enter your home;
- a scary sounding and or looking dog;
- a self defense firearm;
- self defense training;
- pre planning and preparation;
- being smart about posting on social media;
-etc, etc, etc.

They all add to the total package.

And finally, show me a case where an armed citizen defended himself or herself fully with his or her rights under the law and was successfully prosecuted because of his or her own security camera video. If you can find a case at all it will be one of those left hand tail 1 in 1000 cases that ignore the other 99.9% of cases where the video supports the armed citizen's claim that lethal force was justified as self defense.
 
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There are down sides to everything.

You remind me of the folks who tried to claim seat belts were dangerous because the could trap you in a burning vehicle. They'd cite one of the far left hand tail examples where an unbelted individual was thrown clear of a wreck while the belted individual died, and then claim that 1 in a 1000 fluke occurrence proved their case.

Same thing with motor cycle riders and helmets. Yes, some riders wearing improperly designed or improperly worn helmets managed to break their necks in accidents where they might not have without a helmet. But again they ignore the 99.9% of people who both don't break their necks and avoid a TBI.

As a VR Counselor and tax payer it annoyed me to no end when a motorcycle rider adamant on asserting his "right" to ride without a helmet would later come in with a traumatic brain injury after a motor cycle accident and want me to use tax dollars to rehabilitate him so he could go back to work. Nothing like paying tax dollars for an avoidable injury acquired by someone in the "but mah rights!" crowd. It seems some folks are against bellying up to the public trough, until their irresponsible actions make it advantageous, then they are first in line.

Re read my post and consider the meaning of the word "deterrence". No, security cameras and security systems won't prevent everything, and they won't do much good in deterring a criminal too clueless to notice them before hand.

But competent criminals will notice them - and target another home.

Even with incompetent criminals the video captured does make it easier to apprehend the criminal afterwards. While it might not help you or your as victims, it will help get the criminal off the street and prevent future crimes with future victims.

Finally, at no point did I suggest or state that security cameras and security systems should be your only layer of deterrence or defense:
- Fences;
- good exterior lighting;
- trimming or removing shrubs that might provide concealment for a thief trying to enter your home;
- a scary sounding and or looking dog;
- a self defense firearm;
- self defense training;
- pre planning and preparation;
- being smart about posting on social media;
-etc, etc, etc.

They all add to the total package.

And finally, show me a case where an armed citizen defended himself or herself fully with his or her rights under the law and was successfully prosecuted because of his or her own security camera video. If you can find a case at all it will be one of those left hand tail 1 in 1000 cases that ignore the other 99.9% of cases where the video supports the armed citizen's claim that lethal force was justified as self defense.


I ALWAYS wear a seatbelt - always did.

I ALWAYS wore a SNELL rated MC helmet when riding - always.

I have been robbed, vandalized and broken into (my businesses) multiple times. Had state of the art video systems with hi-res color cameras all over. The Police NEVER caught one single criminal in any of the instances due to the cameras. Therefore I am reporting the real deal as it happened to me. I understand where you are coming from and still have video systems in place on my new home. Maybe they will capture and maybe they won't. Maybe they might deter a "smart criminal" maybe not. Maybe I will get the early warning and there might be a delay. One thing is for sure...... I will not count on and bet my life on a video surveillance system - not after so many disappointments!

Yes - I feel better about having one than not, but the theory has still not proven they are all that useful to me due to real life experience. Once again, if a woman is raped and it does get captured in video, guess what - she STILL got raped and you can't undo that - video or not! So a deterrent? A big maybe.
 
I ALWAYS wear a seatbelt - always did.

I ALWAYS wore a SNELL rated MC helmet when riding - always.

I have been robbed, vandalized and broken into (my businesses) multiple times. Had state of the art video systems with hi-res color cameras all over. The Police NEVER caught one single criminal in any of the instances due to the cameras. Therefore I am reporting the real deal as it happened to me. I understand where you are coming from and still have video systems in place on my new home. Maybe they will capture and maybe they won't. Maybe they might deter a "smart criminal" maybe not. Maybe I will get the early warning and there might be a delay. One thing is for sure...... I will not count on and bet my life on a video surveillance system - not after so many disappointments!

Yes - I feel better about having one than not, but the theory has still not proven they are all that useful to me due to real life experience. Once again, if a woman is raped and it does get captured in video, guess what - she STILL got raped and you can't undo that - video or not! So a deterrent? A big maybe.

We have conversations like this because you can't prove a negative.

Look at the recent CDC report on gun violence that was held back and then extensively edited as it contained things like a well thought estimate of million defensive hand gun uses per year. The editors (the politely appointees behind them want solid data like a police report saying a handgun was used in self defense.

And yet fears of unwarranted responses and arrests by police are why 95% of would be victims of an assault, rape or murder do not report the incident if no shots were fired and or no one was hurt. Then you have situations where a would be assailant moves on when they become aware someone is armed before even committing an overt act that could be reported. But since there is no police report, let's just not count them.

Instead let's only count the situations where someone was shot, based on not being able to prove a firearm prevented a crime when a crime didn't occur.


Given your sample of a restricted sample of thefts that occurred under visual surveillance, I'll assume you are in full concurrence with the edited CDC gun violence report and also see little need for firearms for self defense.
 
My Simply Safe doorbell cameras alerts my phone by motion. I can immediately see who/what is at my door or at my gate etc etc. I can talk to them if need be..two way. I have a few of them strategically placed on my property. Not only for safety, but for the convenience when I am not there and can tell someone to do this or that. Mr.UPS dude..put that heavy package in the blue vehicle and lock the door. Thank you. For the measly $80 it cost to put one in...are you kidding me? Absolutely has paid for itself a hundred times over. I also have a few hard wired cameras mostly for when I am home. All it takes is a peek at a monitor to see what is or is not happening most anywhere in or on my property. The eye in the sky is your friend IF you make it so..
 
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We have conversations like this because you can't prove a negative.

Look at the recent CDC report on gun violence that was held back and then extensively edited as it contained things like a well thought estimate of million defensive hand gun uses per year. The editors (the politely appointees behind them want solid data like a police report saying a handgun was used in self defense.

And yet fears of unwarranted responses and arrests by police are why 95% of would be victims of an assault, rape or murder do not report the incident if no shots were fired and or no one was hurt. Then you have situations where a would be assailant moves on when they become aware someone is armed before even committing an overt act that could be reported. But since there is no police report, let's just not count them.

Instead let's only count the situations where someone was shot, based on not being able to prove a firearm prevented a crime when a crime didn't occur.


Given your sample of a restricted sample of thefts that occurred under visual surveillance, I'll assume you are in full concurrence with the edited CDC gun violence report and also see little need for firearms for self defense.

BB57:

Let's just agree to have our differences of opinion. When making decisions I usually go by what my life's experience has shown me and not what Gov't Agency's report. I figure going back and forth will do nothing more than to have one of the Mod's close the thread which I don't think is necessary. Aside from which we aren't that far apart - just picking on details here, so I think we should save this for another day. You can PM me and we can have this discussion in private if you wish. Have a great rest of the day!

Regards,
Chief38
 
My workplace drills that whole run-hide-fight mantra into us.

I told my boss that I am too old to run and too fat to hide...so my options are kind of limited.

As I am very much into security and serve on a safety and security committee at my house of worship I have to respond to this.

Many of us have gone to the run-hide-fight active shooter drills and classes. So, one of my co-committee members, equally into self-defense as so many of us are, was at such a class when the instructor asked the interesting question:

"What do you do in an active shooter situation?"

My friend's response was short and simple:

"Kill him!"

Too old to run and too fat to hide = fight and THAT is exactly the reason so many of us advocate the carrying of weapons by trained personnel at schools, churches, shopping malls, and definitely at home!

Train like you'll fight and you'll fight like you trained = no second place winner.

Fight to win!
 
This was sparked by some of the comments, articles and stories and news reports I've watched and read over the last few months.

I am a big proponent on being and staying prepared but also a big proponent on avoiding trouble in the first place. While there are times no matter what you do, trouble just comes calling and you have no choice but to defend yourself and the lives of your families, - got that. In general, I always like to think what the risk is before doing something in a certain place. If I can avoid things, sometimes that is the best way. Not saying don't live your life, just live it wisely as this is not 1955 anymore.

There are a plethora of things one can do on a daily basis to avoid a home invasion or break in with some very very simple methods. Some are: always leaving outside lights on at night (make sure they go off during daylight), motion detectors, use of timers and lighting when you are away, not letting mail & newspapers accumulate in your mail box, not having snow shoveled or foot prints in your driveway when you are away is bad. Leaving a snow covered car in your driveway for weeks at a time - no good! Try and make your home look as though you have many people living their at all times - the best you can. While it wasn't always this way - it certainly is now as times have changed!

I never tell my paper delivery person or mailman I am going away or suspend deliveries- never! I have a neighbor do those things for me. Sorry, I don't trust delivery people all that much! Even if they are relatively honest people, they can still tip off less than honest ones if not even purposely. Don't be a cheap skate - always have a light of some sort on during night time hours. The small amount of electricity they burn up is probably one of the best ways to make a home invasion or break in happen somewhere else. If you can afford something like a Ring Doorbell, camera system and alarm they are many times a deterrent also. Criminals do not like to be on candid camera! They would just rather go somewhere's else.

Last but not least, lock all your doors and windows and be prepared for the worst, but try to avoid it at all costs!

When out and about, never leave items on your dash board, console or seats that someone might want to steal. What might not be that valuable to you might be to a thief. I know this next statement might P/O some here, but I'd say to never leave a firearm in any car or truck as they are too vulnerable to to being stolen. Plus.... the gun in your car can't help you if you are not in the car. IMO, if you carry then carry it on you person.

A little common sense goes a long way in avoiding trouble. When you simply can't avoid it, be prepared as best as possible.

Too many stories in too many places about tragic events on a daily basis was the impetus behind this post. Sorry if some get offended but my intentions are good.

WHY would you leave the outside lights on at night?? Out here in the woods I like it DARK........Free from light pollution.
 
WHY would you leave the outside lights on at night?? Out here in the woods I like it DARK........Free from light pollution.

There's a world of difference between living in the woods and living in a metropolitan or suburban setting. The streets are illuminated so light pollution is extant whether you leave lights on in front of your house or not. Apartment projects of any size are always illuminated as well.

Not leaving lights on attracts perpetrators. Leaving lights on attracts insects.

Your call.
 
I think that sums it up well - it depends on the context.
I didn't understand the front lights on when I moved to a row house block - but it soon made sense. Neighbors can see who is on your front porch and they can see if that person is a stranger and what they are up to. Maybe not perfectly, but its a big help. There's also often people out (or there used to be) and enough eyes looking out windows, and people coming home from 2nd and 3rd shift type jobs, that it makes sense.

Now the back yards on this block are more suburban. A light on all the time won't help because their isn't anyone looking. Even when they are they can't see well into other yards (due to trees and fences etc). Of course when I the dogs barking - that's a big clue that there is something there that doesn't belong - usually a possum. LOL. Of course some people see it differently. I do agree a light you can turn on or a motion sensor light of course is useful to see what's in your own yard.
 
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There's a world of difference between living in the woods and living in a metropolitan or suburban setting. The streets are illuminated so light pollution is extant whether you leave lights on in front of your house or not. Apartment projects of any size are always illuminated as well.

Not leaving lights on attracts perpetrators. Leaving lights on attracts insects.

Your call.

I am blessed to be where I am.
 
Great thread here, Chief...thanks for starting it.

Here's my 2 cents: Never, EVER discuss what firearms you own, especially amongst strangers.

When somebody asks me how many guns I have, my answer is "more than I need, and not as many as I want"...

My answer's, "More than one," on the odd occasion that I do answer.
 
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Interesting thread, Chief.

Living in the woods is definitely different. Personally, I prefer a dark sky, but where I live now, it is only a memory (at least until the grid goes down). Our State Parks here have a "dark sky" policy, and most state parks (at least the newer ones) have lighting that helps keep the sky dark.
 
There's a difference between a home invasion and a burglary.

According to the reading that I've done almost every home invasion robbery that I've looked into one of two things are common, the robber either walked right through an unlocked door or the robber knocked on the door and the homeowner let them in. There was a home invasion right across the street from where I live the year before last. According to the homeowner's own statement they were sitting in their living room with the front door wide open at night and the robbers walked right in.

According to police officers I have asked, the type of home invasion that involves the robber kicking down the front door and going in guns blazing generally involves people who would be knownto have a lot of cash in their homes. Drug dealers for instance, people in high cash volume businesses, I've said this before but I used to have a friend who owned several laundromats. He had a stack of $1000 Bank sacks of quarters under the desk in his living room. He had stacks of $1 and $5 bills from The Coin Changers in his laundromats in his house. To my knowledge his home was never burglarized or robbed but he would have been the target demographic.

So, avoid being the target demographic and practice basic perimeter security at home and your chances of being the victim of a home invasion robbery are almost nil.
 
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WHY would you leave the outside lights on at night?? Out here in the woods I like it DARK........Free from light pollution.

I'd venture to say most of us don't live in the woods - at least the deep woods. I would think criminals and burglars dislike doing their thing in bright light. They don't know who is home, if your home, if you are armed, or if there are others watching. If they are in a bright light they will be illuminated while you are supposedly not.

While a motion detector would illuminate the area when there is motion, it will only stay on so long.

To each his own. I just do what I think is best - I guess others do what they think is best. YMMV
 
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