Manual usefulness??

[sniper]

Frustrated! I like to load my .38 Special and 357 magnum cartridges to a specific velocity range, and appreciate it when that information is readily available!
Reading through my latest Hodgdon "MORE LOADS THAN ANY OTHER MANUAL" paperback issue...it does have a great many loads with powders that I may want to investigate. BUT! The barrels of the test machinery are listed as either 7.7 or 10 inch. WHO in the Merrie Aitch can extrapolate from that information? I suppose it is useful for those shooting Thompson Center switch barrel guns, but not so much for the majority of us who have more "normal"guns with 2-6 1/2 inch barrels, and would like to have a faint idea of real world velocities of the published loads. Shooters of the Smith and Wesson 8 3/4" barreled revolvers may find some utility there. Lyman used to use vented barrels, probably on universal receivers, which was definitely helpful, and Speer manuals use (imagine that) real guns, and lists the make and barrel length! The Hornady hardback manual also gives better information, and although just a guide, they will bring a reloader closer to actual real world velocities. I will dig out my back issues of HANDLOADER magazine...they usually have good , usable information.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm not sure why you want to get to a specific velocity but IMO accuracy is more important than a few fps. If you really need to know you can always but a Chronograph to be sure. They can be bought new for not a lot of money.

I think we all have felt your frustration with the velocities listed in the manuals. Don't let it get to you.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

My dealings with the Hornady Company and family over the last 42 years, lead me to believe that they use a unique brand of logic.

Ivan

 

[Cdog]

Not all, but the majority of published data is based on unrealistic conditions. These are basic guides to get you safely in the ball park.

For handloaders a chronograph is one of the best investments I have made.


Too many variables for velocity data to be spot on for any application. My first lesson learned using a chronograph was about saturation. I could keep increasing the amount of H110/W296 powder but gain no more velocity. My max velocity for example load may have been reached using 10% less powder than I was stuffing in the case.

 

[rockquarry]

Frustrated! I like to load my .38 Special and 357 magnum cartridges to a specific velocity range, and appreciate it when that information is readily available!
Reading through my latest Hodgdon "MORE LOADS THAN ANY OTHER MANUAL" paperback issue...it does have a great many loads with powders that I may want to investigate. BUT! The barrels of the test machinery are listed as either 7.7 or 10 inch. WHO in the Merrie Aitch can extrapolate from that information? I suppose it is useful for those shooting Thompson Center switch barrel guns, but not so much for the majority of us who have more "normal"guns with 2-6 1/2 inch barrels, and would like to have a faint idea of real world velocities of the published loads. Shooters of the Smith and Wesson 8 3/4" barreled revolvers may find some utility there. Lyman used to use vented barrels, probably on universal receivers, which was definitely helpful, and Speer manuals use (imagine that) real guns, and lists the make and barrel length! The Hornady hardback manual also gives better information, and although just a guide, they will bring a reloader closer to actual real world velocities. I will dig out my back issues of HANDLOADER magazine...they usually have good , usable information.

A safe guideline for powder charges is the primary reason for using the data in the righteous manuals published by manufacturers and distributors. Even then, the data may have to be slightly adjusted, especially when using components that vary from what's in the books.

As mentioned, a chronograph is essential if you want to know the actual velocity in your gun. A chronograph also helps in determining potentailly dangerous pressures.

Yes, HANDLOADER magazine is likely the best source for locating useful data that will show results pretty close to what you may get in your own gun. Not everything is available online as many wrongfully assume. You can't have too many paper sources. It often helps to compare data when searching fo a safe load.

 

[alwslate]

In my opinion Hodgdon data is the least reliable of all manuals. Some data from other manuals comes from real revolvers but the best data available comes from Handloader magazine articles by Brian Pearce. Real guns are used and all loads are pressure tested.

 

[zeke]

If i need to know an accurate/specific velocity the handloads are getting, am using a chrono. Even if a manual lists a velocity for barrel length you want, it doesn't mean that is necessarily the velocity you are getting.

If working towards max loads, am considering a chronograph a necessity, especially safety wise. Although others will certainly disagree.

 

[Skeet 028]

The reasons the makers use longer bbls is varied but pressure guns... real pressure guns is to establish real pressures in a controlled environment... Using real guns is not really possible. No way to read actual pressures in a revolver or rifle...you can get an approximate pressure using strain gauges...but not direct piezoelectric pressures. So I guess to get real pressure readings the bbl length doesn't matter...that figure in the manual in psi is to make sure that the pressures are within safe range. Pay attention to them.Velocities in your firearms will NEVER be the same even if you used the same bbl length. Remember velocities with two identical revolvers can vary quite a bit

 

[ruggyh]

.... Lyman used to use vented barrels, probably on universal receivers, which was definitely helpful, and Speer manuals use (imagine that) real guns, and lists the make and barrel length! The Hornady hardback manual also gives better information, and although just a guide, they will bring a reloader closer to actual real world velocities. I will dig out my back issues of HANDLOADER magazine...they usually have good , usable information.

The use of vented barrels for collecting pressure data was proven to be of no value when testing equipment and capture tools found peak pressure is reached before the bullet leaves the brass for vast majority of handgun cartridges.

As mention by others, velocity varies form gun to gun with the same barrel length, a sample discussion here.
460 S&W: Velocity / Barrel Length

There is plenty of data out there for determining an expected velocity for most common handgun cartridges.
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home

... Using real guns is not really possible. No way to read actual pressures in a revolver or rifle...you can get an approximate pressure using strain gauges...but not direct piezoelectric pressures.

Both strain gauges and direct piezoelectric transducers can provide equally precise measurement.

Technically a piezoelectric transducer is a strain gauge.

While SAAMI standards prefer and use direct piezoelectric transducers their European counter part CIP uses strain gauges.

The US military use both in ballistic specifications.

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Reminder that loading manuals are data sets, not recipes.

They provide information about a specific set values.

If a change is made you can expect the results to change.

 

[mtgianni]

Even with the same model gun you will not get the same velocities with out having the same b/c gap and exact same barrel inner dimensions. Chronos are cheap.

 

[chief38]

A long long time ago I got frustrated with loading manuals! While they are a good starting guideline, they are not accurate for any specific gun, bbl length & and any specific combo of components unless using exactly what they specify - even then they are only approximate.

That is what prompted me to go out and get a chronograph. Chronographs are about $100 bucks (+/-) and work very well now-days. They give you the ability to tweak your specific loads with your specific components and will verify what you are doing. With my Digital Link from the Pro Chrony it sends all info instantly to my iPhone. It is a permanent and printable record of exactly how your loads are performing.

So while I still refer to a loading manual (have at least 4 of them) when starting a new load or weight bullet, I quickly know what velocities it is doing.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Manuals have SAFE data , that gets you into the ball park.

It is very unlikely that your same loading of a manuals data with the
same barrel length, will match, due to the guns spec differences and
the good chance that the bullets will also be a little different, as well
as your elevation and even temperature, when tested.

A chrony is the only way to REALLY know what your loads are doing
with all the different things , that are involved, in making ammo, if
you are serious about the fps that you will get.

I loaded for over 45 years, before I finally broke down and bought one.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Sit Reloader Sentiret

IMHO the load data & velocities listed in many manuals are just about as accurate as most manufacturer's claims for their factory ammunition performance...

In the ballpark, hopefully...!

Just because something is in print (i.e., "published") does not guarantee, unfortunately, that it is either accurate or true.

Cheers!

P.S. I would also add "sit reloader sentiret" to "caveat emptor" !

 

[rockquarry]

IMHO the load data & velocities listed in many manuals are just about as accurate as most manufacturer's claims for their factory ammunition performance...

In the ballpark, hopefully...!

Just because something is in print (i.e., "published") does not guarantee, unfortunately, that it is either accurate or true.

Cheers!

P.S. I would also add "sit reloader sentiret" to "caveat emptor" !

I don't think anyone implied that published data was accurate or "true" (not sure what that means; maybe it's velocity).

Generally, if it's in paper print, it's safe. That's more important than all other considerations. It's up to the well-educated handloader to develop loads to suit his needs, accuracy certainly being #1 behind safety. However,
I don't know how many really delve into load development like handloaders once did.

 

[Miracle Man]

There are so very many things that are going to affect velocity/pressure that it's not even funny. The barrel-cylinder gap in revolvers is always going to be different from gun to gun and what velocity you're going to get. The list would go on and on.

They can't make a manual that's 100% spot on accurate covering every possible combination of variables and come up with this load = 1,155 FPS from any 6" barrel gun it's fired in, always.

100% agree with the masses. Get a chronograph to know what you're getting with your gun/load combo.

 

[Pisgah]

Extrapolation is not on my approved list of reloading activities. It's a sure way to misinform yourself, and potentially worse...

 

[Skeet 028]

The whole reason to test amd print the results is really evident. They sure don't print "unsafe" recipes. The velocities are pretty much irrelevant. They use test receivers and barrels for a reason. I had some shotshell loads I developed years ago tested by White Laboratory...They actually told me the velocities would probably not be the same in my guns but the pressures were safe in any modern arm in good condition. As far as handguns... I have 2 4 inch Model 15s. velocities over the chrono are an average of 75FPS different with loads from the same box...same day and conditions. Fellow told me I have a slow barrel? in one. Something is slow...maybe my trigger pull is different. one has target stocks LOL!

 

[rockquarry]

The whole reason to test amd print the results is really evident. They sure don't print "unsafe" recipes. The velocities are pretty much irrelevant. They use test receivers and barrels for a reason. I had some shotshell loads I developed years ago tested by White Laboratory...They actually told me the velocities would probably not be the same in my guns but the pressures were safe in any modern arm in good condition. As far as handguns... I have 2 4 inch Model 15s. velocities over the chrono are an average of 75FPS different with loads from the same box...same day and conditions. Fellow told me I have a slow barrel? in one. Something is slow...maybe my trigger pull is different. one has target stocks LOL!

I've run across "slow" and "fast" barrels, but the slowest barrel I've found was on a 7x57 Kleinguenther rifle some years back. While this rifle shot reasonably well, velocities were almost 200 fps slower than those obtained with a Ruger 77 7x57.

Muzzle velocities with the Ruger were close to load manual figures, about where they should have been. I think the Ruger barrel was an inch or two shorter than the Kleinguenther barrel. Fortunately, such large discrepancies are not common.

 

[Skeet 028]

Heck I had a Ruger 77 in 7mm. Don't know about fast or slow bbls...but the only round that shot halfway decent was the 175 gr roundnose. Anything pointy just sucked like a vacuum

 

[rockquarry]

Heck I had a Ruger 77 in 7mm. Don't know about fast or slow bbls...but the only round that shot halfway decent was the 175 gr roundnose. Anything pointy just sucked like a vacuum

I don't know what the twist was on these barrels. Mine was no target gun, but it shot well the five bullets I tried, all of which were spitzers. I never tried a 175 round nose but did use the 175 Hornady Spire Point. I bought my 77 new more than thirty years ago, sold it after about fifteen years.