Then why spend the extra money on 10mm stuff when .45 acp is not only cheaper, but more available in a much wider variety of guns?
The 10mm Fraud
- Thread starter Bill Lear
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Then why spend the extra money on 10mm stuff when .45 acp is not only cheaper, but more available in a much wider variety of guns?
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Sounds kind of like the 10mm has ended up exactly where Col. Cooper wanted it to be in the first place. A 200gr bullet at 1,000 fps.
Here’s your answer folks. The same reason people buy 44 mag revolvers and then say ” I only shoot specials so the gun doesn’t get beat up.” When reality is “ I only shoot specials so I don’t get beat up.” More weight shoved out of a barrel means more recoil. Or more velocity from the same weight.
And frankly, urban self defense doesn’t require anti grizzly levels of power.
10mm is a great cartridge, but takes a ton of practice to handle it. Practice isn’t exactly economical these days compared to 9mm. Well, 10mm never was economical, but you get my drift.
Walter Rego
Member
I love my Smith & Wesson Ten Ought Six. I have a few boxes of the original Norma 200 grain truncated FMJ loads. It didn't seem all that hot to me. I don't have a chronograph but my notes say that when it was tested the actual velocity was about 1125 fps rather than the 1200 fps printed on the boxes. I have some of the Underwood 180 gr. JHP ammo, their published data says 1300 fps and I have read reports that it chrono's around 1250 fps.
The weakest factory ammo is supposed to be the Sellior & Bellot and Federal 180 grain FMJ's, they are supposed to clock between 1165-1200 fps and testing shows the actual velocity is more like 1050 fps.
Since even the lighter weight bullets aren't that fast, I won't shoot anything lighter than the 175 gr. Silvertips in my 10mm. Might as well go with the extra mass.
The weakest factory ammo is supposed to be the Sellior & Bellot and Federal 180 grain FMJ's, they are supposed to clock between 1165-1200 fps and testing shows the actual velocity is more like 1050 fps.
Since even the lighter weight bullets aren't that fast, I won't shoot anything lighter than the 175 gr. Silvertips in my 10mm. Might as well go with the extra mass.
SweetMK
Member
WHY!!?? Because I walked in a LGS one day,, that is why.
It happened to be during the time that everyone HATED 10MM,,
and they wanted rid of them at ANY cost..
A guy had a Gold Cup 10MM on consignment,, and after a month, there were no nibbles.
When the guns owner walked out, I followed him, and asked him what he wanted for the gun,,
He said $350,, I told him to go in and get off consignment,, I would buy it.
When he came out, I had the $350 ready,, he handed me a big box!!
I got the gun, and factory box,
and
reloading dies
200 - 300 bullets
a couple hundred 10MM brass
a couple boxes of primers,,
and maybe some other stuff.
I was expecting to get the gun!!
That is why I own a 10MM Gold Cup,,
mscampbell2734
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The issue is when Norma began production of 10mm ammo they did NOT follow SAAMI specs, they followed European specs, CIP. In general CIP specs are about 5% higher then SAAMI spec. Plus this was back in the day when everything was overblow, possibly a result of the huge amount of cocaine being consumed at the time (did I just say that? Miami Vice)
Anyway the original ammo was found to be far more powerful then the guns could handle a study diet of, largely because Norma HAD delivered on 200 at 1200, and the Bren 10 designs had assumed they would deliver 200 at 1075-1100. Add in the unsupported chamber of Colt's Delta Elite and pretty quick the major US ammo manufactures downloaded the 10
Anyway the original ammo was found to be far more powerful then the guns could handle a study diet of, largely because Norma HAD delivered on 200 at 1200, and the Bren 10 designs had assumed they would deliver 200 at 1075-1100. Add in the unsupported chamber of Colt's Delta Elite and pretty quick the major US ammo manufactures downloaded the 10
Having 2. My Dillon can crank out any load I want......Mostly 7/8 throttle to full. Never shot factory ammo. Same with my forty's. I like both(and dozens of other calibers) so I DON"T do comparisons......I just enjoy.
If I wanted 9mm performance, I would have purchased 9mm. My pocket pistol is a Taurus G2C in 40. They stopped making them. With it's short barrel, I need a 40 to get the power of a 9 in a longer barrel. And it takes Sig P226/229 magazines.
I have 2 different 10s, and will be buying a 3rd, a Glock 29.
I have 2 different 10s, and will be buying a 3rd, a Glock 29.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I try not to get involved in all the caliber wars and the rest. I try to keep it simple.
For SD I carry the .38 Special + P with a 135gr bullet, 9mm standard velocity with a 124gr bullet and the 45 ACP standard velocity with a 230gr bullet. That's just what I like and feel it's all I need to stop an attack.
Woods carry and the like is a totally different story.
For SD I carry the .38 Special + P with a 135gr bullet, 9mm standard velocity with a 124gr bullet and the 45 ACP standard velocity with a 230gr bullet. That's just what I like and feel it's all I need to stop an attack.
Woods carry and the like is a totally different story.
There is a significant difference in the method of chamber pressure measurement between CIP and SAAMI. CIP measures pressure at or very near the cartridge case mouth, SAAMI measures pressure at the midpoint of the cartridge case. With many calibers, the same ammo will produce a CIP pressure that is higher than the SAAMI pressure.
With the Bren X, there were reports of cracked slides, but that may have been a result of D&D's questionable quality control. Slides and receivers were not always properly heat treated and there were likely porosity issues with some of the castings, but with lots of orders, slow production, and mounting bills, faulty parts were assembled into functioning pistols and shipped.
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I read all the posts in the thread. I think "fraud" to describe current 10 mm Auto loads is a bit harsh, but as with many other hotter calibers it would be nice if the manufacturers would state real-world velocities. If this were to occur people could make up their minds as to whether a 180 gr at 900 fps (.40 S & W) is worth the difference from 1050 fps. But if you have a 10 mm pistol, a .40 S & W is not going to fit and function. Maybe have one of each. 
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STORMINORMAN
Member
Quite a few 10mm pistols are reported to fire 40 S&W ammo just fine...
Regards!
Regards!
At first they were building 10mm on 9mm frames and all that noise. It took a few years, and police departments handing in their guns to trade back for 9s.
Having actually put lead on meat I can say that even moderate 10mm loads are very effective at killing deer. The 10mm is one of those ballistic anomalies where the paper stats and real world measurements don’t jive. I find it better for the task than 45 ACP and 45 Super as it shoots flatter and it’s been easier to achieve the type of accuracy that I require in a hunting pistol. Where 10mm really shines is in a 6 inch barreled long slide. My preferred loads would only be considered “warm” but yield Skoal can accuracy at 75 yards. At 50 yards I get pass through on Midwest whitetails.
You have to get past the paper stats to understand what a cartridge can really be.
Now one thing that is absolutely BS about the 10mm is its mythical ability to stop bears in their tracks. It works well for deer and hogs but the actual terminal performance is no where near what is required for such a large animal. You gain capacity over typical revolver offerings but you cannot come close to what a 44 or 45 Colt can do.
You have to get past the paper stats to understand what a cartridge can really be.
Now one thing that is absolutely BS about the 10mm is its mythical ability to stop bears in their tracks. It works well for deer and hogs but the actual terminal performance is no where near what is required for such a large animal. You gain capacity over typical revolver offerings but you cannot come close to what a 44 or 45 Colt can do.
Autonomous
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The 10mm has killed at least one polar bear that I know of.
mscampbell2734
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Actualy NO, you can NOT build a 10mm on a 9mm frame. The cartridge is too long to fit into the magazine/frame.
What was happening was the early 40 cal guns were built on 9mm frames, guns like the Glock 22, Smith 4006 and Beretta 96. Pretty quick the manufactures figued out you can not just fit a new barrel and slide and call it good.
Beretta had to redesign their slide to make it thicker where the locking block locked in. Browning went to a third locking lug on the Hi Power etc.
I think this is different.....
It seems more to be under 'cartridge development'. Or maybe 'undevelopment'.
It seems more to be under 'cartridge development'. Or maybe 'undevelopment'.
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A lot of the early 10mm guns like the Springfield Omega I had were 45s with a 10mm barrel and stronger recoil spring. Like the early 40s based on 9mm designs many of these guns failed to handle the higher pressure and greater energy of 10mm. The locking mechanism on my Omega broke twice before I sold it.
