Long vs. Short Action

[paplinker]

Incidentally, in my immediately preceding post, I wrote:

I have identified exactly one shipment in February. Regular shipments began on March 1, 1946.

The February shipment was to fill a large order for the Cleveland Police Department. Interestingly, those guns were serialized in the S815xxx range.

For comparison, one of the guns that went out the door on the First of March was an SV prefix revolver, serialized as SV811119. Oddly enough, we know when this one was assembled - August 27, 1945. It sat in the vault for a while!

On March 3, a shipment of 800 M&P revolvers went to a large distributor in New York City. Half of them had 4" barrels and half had 5" barrels. At least some of them carried the SV prefix serial numbers below 800,000.

Not sure if this is relevant but I sold a set of K frame service grips a while back that had a 82xxxx serial number on the back. I remember because it seemed a pretty high number to me.


Also not to make things even more confusing

You could buy a K22 Masterpiece in 1940 that is short action.

You could buy a 38/44 OD in 1946 in long action

 

[cmansguns]

Hello Tatume:

I'll try to comment on your post no 17 above, at least from my standpoint as an "accumulator" of firearms, more than a purist collector. I also love to shoot, mostly range time these days as age and dexterity don't allow much true hunting anymore. I got my first CCW Permit in New York shortly after I came home from Army in 1968 and I've had a FFL 03 (Curios & Relics) for many years now.

As to your intended situation, you ask for an "inexpensive" way to get into pre-war, long action S&W's. My experience is that this is a moderate to highly expensive category to start out with, especially if you're a shooter more than a collector

Most guns in this category are already "collector quality" simply because of age, and if in semi decent condition, will usually start at 4 figures and go up. True also is that a lot of these guns have no replacement part(s) availability at all, so they become safe queens. Some of my guns in this category are:
1899 US Army, 1 of 1000, 38 Special (March 29, 1901)
22/32 Hand Ejector (April 20, 1915), 22LR
K22 1st Model, Outdoorsman, (1931)
K22 Masterpiece, (1947) (pics posted in above post)

Then we have the wartime Victory Models, mine is a Dec 17, 1942, US Navy 38 Special. Even these Victories when found in decent condition are "climbing in price"

Lastly, like you I like to shoot, and so does my family so rather than shoot the "collectibles" I just kept on acquiring more modern Smith's and enjoy everyone of them. I find that most "modern" (post 1958) Model stamped S & W's are still reasonable (meaning at or under $1000) and are meant to be shot all day long..everything from 22 right up to 44 Magnum, in all sorts of condition from no finish left to pristine with box and tools. Currently, your C & R will allow you to buy guns that are 50 years old or older, provided you deal with another C&R holder, or an 01 FFL that will sell to your C & R.

Some good examples in my opinion are Model 10 (basically M&P) 38 Special, fixed sights, 4" traditional police revolver, or even the stainless version, Model 65. Both available around my area for $400 - $500 in top condition.

Sorry for the long ramble but it just hasn't been my experience to find pre-war guns in decent condition for "inexpensive" prices, although I certainly do not know your situation.

Whatever you obtain, remember...we love pictures! Np picture...it didn't really happen.

PS; Welcome to 10 years on the Forum.

 

[StrawHat]

I have both short action and long action 45 ACP revolvers (N frames). I never noticed the hammer being different until I read this thread!

My tell was always the visible stud under the thumb piece.

Kevin

 

[rct269]

Short/Long action refers to the distance the hammer falls--------and more particularly to the amount of time it takes to fall. Less time is a distinct advantage to those who shoot between heart beats---------or so I'm told. The "High-Speed" lingo refers to the advantage of the short action.

There are three actions within the hand ejector family---long, short, and shorter yet to be found on the Single Action K-38-----which was born with the name Short Action Single Action K-38. The short action on the SAO K-38 is approximately 24% shorter than that on it's regular, everyday cousin.

All that said, I don't know anybody---never have known anybody who can take advantage of the difference in hammer fall time-------------but they're out there----------somewhere.

Ralph Tremaine

As an aside, those folks out there-----somewhere, can shoot pretty much the same groups at 25 and 50 yards standing on their hind legs and holding their gun with one hand as you can----seated, with two hands on a rest holding the gun. (!!)

 

[.38SuperMan]

I only have one long action, a 1920-22 M&P. One thing I notice is there's a pin visible below the cylinder thin release on the long action and not on the short. Also I notice quite a different feel to the action when shooting double action.

The second shot is my late 1948 to early 49 M&P with satin finish and short action. Would this have been an early K frame short action M&P?

 

[kbm6893]

According to the best information we have at present, there were only two K-22 Masterpiece revolvers shipped in 1946, both of them in December. Regular shipments began two months later, as you learned from Roy. Throughout 1947, the vast majority of K target guns assembled and shipped were K-22s. The K-38 came late to the party. The first five were assembled in June, 1947, with full production beginning in May, 1948 (320 examples were completed that month).


In a word, yes. For the first several months after civilian sales began, only the M&P was actually available for shipment, and pent up demand was huge. Early on, some large city police departments were among the big purchasers. I've already mentioned Cleveland (in February), but another was the NYPD. I show one shipment to the New York agency on March 19, 1946.

There was another big shipment to the NYPD in October of 1946. I own one of the guns in that shipment.

 

[rct269]

I only have one long action, a 1920-22 M&P. One thing I notice is there's a pin visible below the cylinder thin release on the long action and not on the short. Also I notice quite a different feel to the action when shooting double action.

The second shot is my late 1948 to early 49 M&P with satin finish and short action. Would this have been an early K frame short action M&P?

I don't know what you mean by a "different feel", but the hammer fall is shorter (both distance and time) double action than single action---simply because two different sears are involved.

Ralph Tremaine

Given a moment to think about it (and very likely to come up with the wrong answer), the trigger pull is most assuredly different---and that's because you're compressing two different springs double action---and just one single action------and you're not compressing what I'll call the single action spring hardly at all.

 

[Muley Gil]

I only have one long action, a 1920-22 M&P. One thing I notice is there's a pin visible below the cylinder thin release on the long action and not on the short. Also I notice quite a different feel to the action when shooting double action.

The second shot is my late 1948 to early 49 M&P with satin finish and short action. Would this have been an early K frame short action M&P?

Yes, your snubbie has the short action.

The easiest way to tell long vs short action-the hammer spur is at the top of the hammer in a long action S&W.

 

[Retired W4]

Hello All,

This discussion is both informative and entertaining. Thank you.

From what I can gather, the least expensive way for me to get my feet wet with pre-War S&W revolvers is to look for a Military and Police 38 Special. Would you agree that this would be a good first gun for a neophyte?

Thanks, Tom

P.s. I'm waiting on the BATFE to act on my C&R application. When it arrives, would a forum WTB ad be a good way to initiate my search?

Tom,
To answer your question directly I would recommend finding a 38 M&P, Model of 1905, 4th change. They are very common, because they made a lot of them, and some really nice examples can be found for sale. That's not to mention that they are great revolvers for the money spent.

In keeping with the spirit of this thread I'll mention that I copied Jim and Jack's posts for my further reference. Great information.

 

[StrawHat]

So, since this occurred long before the internet, was there much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the change to the short action? Or the incorporation of the sliding safety?

Kevin

 

[Retired W4]

So, since this occurred long before the internet, was there much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the change to the short action? Or the incorporation of the sliding safety?

Kevin

The US Navy sure didn't like the old hammer block.

 

[ACORN]

Just to add something to the discussion, my 6" K38 Target has the humpback hammer with the long action ser. # 696391

 

[Hondo44]

I only have one long action, a 1920-22 M&P. One thing I notice is there's a pin visible below the cylinder thin release on the long action and not on the short.

The pin you refer to below the cylinder release thumb piece is actually the hammer pivot stud. Both of your guns have it of course and it's not related to the long/short action. You see it on the long action because it's threaded. It just coincidentally changed to a pressed in stud polished flush about the same time as the action change. You can see the pressed in stud with good light and magnification.

 

[JP@AK]

The pin you refer to below the cylinder release thumb piece is actually the hammer pivot stud.

You see it on the long action because it's threaded. It just coincidentally changed to a pressed in stud polished flush about the same time as the action change.

Correct. Here is some additional detail

The management order to change the hammer pivot stud from a threaded unit to a pressed unit was issued on January 18, 1946. It was not implemented immediately. The earliest unit with the pressed stud that I have found in my research shipped in April, 1946.

The short action on the M&P was initiated in March, 1948. It first appeared on revolver #S990184, which shipped on April 7, 1948. One apparent prototype was assembled on October 21, 1947, according to Hellstrom's notes. It is unknown whether that gun actually shipped.

 

[PeteC]

Correct. Here is some additional detail

The management order to change the hammer pivot stud from a threaded unit to a pressed unit was issued on January 18, 1946. It was not implemented immediately. The earliest unit with the pressed stud that I have found in my research shipped in April, 1946.

The short action on the M&P was initiated in March, 1948. It first appeared on revolver #S990184, which shipped on April 7, 1948. One apparent prototype was assembled on October 21, 1947, according to Hellstrom's notes. It is unknown whether that gun actually shipped.

Does this mean that M&P K-frames, with the S serial number prefix, made between 1946 and 1948, had the long action trigger with no visible pivot stud?

Or am I reading something into this post that isn't there??

 

[StrawHat]

The US Navy sure didn't like the old hammer block.

They lost more sailors to spoiled food than to S&W revolvers being dropped two decks!

Kevin

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Does this mean that M&P K-frames, with the S serial number prefix, made between 1946 and 1948, had the long action trigger with no visible pivot stud?

Or am I reading something into this post that isn't there??

Yes. Here's an example, 1948 .38 M&P:

 

[JP@AK]

Does this mean that M&P K-frames, with the S serial number prefix, made between 1946 and 1948, had the long action trigger with no visible pivot stud?

Pete
The S prefix M&Ps had the threaded hammer stud until c. April, 1946. After that, they had the pressed stud, polished flat on the outside of the frame.

From the first postwar shipment in February, 1946, until c. March/April, 1948, they had the long action. After that, most of them had the High Speed hammer. A few later units still had the long action.

 

[JP@AK]

Take a look at these two.

The 5" unit on top shipped in March, 1946. It has the threaded stud. The 4" revolver on the bottom shipped in April, 1946. It has the pressed stud.

You will also notice that the earlier gun has prewar style Magna stocks (yes, they number to the gun). The later (4") revolver has the first style postwar Magnas.

Both have the long action, of course.

 

[Truckman]

This could make a very useful addition to the list of notable threads......Ben