Rethinking 32 S&W long ---‐-‐-‐‐--‐---‐---‐-----‐-

[alwslate]

Cry foul all you want. I showed the results I had with my gun and my cast bullets and hand loaded ammo. Please show your results with your gun and whatever ammo you use.

Well I see that you're not about to be wrong ,but the OP was referring to factory ammo but have it your way I'm not advocating a .32 Long snubby for self defense. But I have fired a great number of bullets from different guns into yellow pine boards and landscape timbers over the years and I knew your results were not representative of factory ammo.

 

[BC38]

Nothing is absolute, there are always exceptions and, as you said, "one size doesn't fit all". I merely stated that a reliance on foot pounds of energy is getting into the theoretical rather than the practical. There's little point in arguing such.

Yeah, FWIW the 50 or 60 year track history documented by lawmen of the last century who carried AND used the 32 SWL against bad guys doesn't quite fit my definition of "exceptions". But YMMV.

As for ft-lbs of Muzzle Energy (ME) numbers, I prefer an objective, repeatable, and verifiable measure like that over the opinion of internet mall ninjas. At least it is a measurable and quantifiable number. As opposed to someone's subjective opinion, based on their personal anecdotal, and unverifiable "experiences".

I view ME numbers for a given cartridge as being in the same category as gel tests. ME numbers (like gel-tests) aren't the be-all-end-all, but they are at least a measurable standard to use for comparing cartridges and their ballistics. That makes them one valid factor to consider when choosing your SD caliber, gun, and ammo.

Whether you choose to accept it as such is a totally subjective decision. As they say, YMMV.

 

[rockquarry]

Yeah, FWIW the 50 or 60 year track history documented by lawmen of the last century who carried AND used the 32 SWL against bad guys doesn't quite fit my definition of "exceptions". But YMMV.

As for ft-lbs of Muzzle Energy (ME) numbers, I prefer an objective, repeatable, and verifiable measure like that over the opinion of internet mall ninjas. At least it is a measurable and quantifiable number. As opposed to someone's subjective opinion, based on their personal anecdotal, and unverifiable "experiences".

I view ME numbers for a given cartridge as being in the same category as gel tests. ME numbers (like gel-tests) aren't the be-all-end-all, but they are at least a measurable standard to use for comparing cartridges and their ballistics. That makes them one valid factor to consider when choosing your SD caliber, gun, and ammo.

Whether you choose to accept it as such is a totally subjective decision. As they say, YMMV.

I had no idea there was a documented 50- 60 year track history by lawman who carried and used the .32 against bad guys. I think that would be interesting reading if you can provide the source.

 

[BC38]

I had no idea there was a documented 50- 60 year track history by lawman who carried and used the .32 against bad guys. I think that would be interesting reading if you can provide the source.

As previously referenced, .32 caliber sidearms were the standard for law enforcement (and many militarizes) for at least half a century, both in this country AND on the European continent.
Look it up for yourself.

 

[rockquarry]

As previously referenced, .32 caliber sidearms were the standard for law enforcement (and many militarizes) for at least half a century, both in this country AND on the European continent.
Look it up for yourself.

Then you're not referencing an actual source basis with figures and stats, but assumptions only. Pointless discussion.

 

[smithra_66]

I wouldn't carry it purposely, but if I were at the range or in my backyard shooting my 1922 Police Positive and some bad guy attacked me, I'd definitely shoot him with it.

 

[BC38]

Then you're not referencing an actual source basis with figures and stats, but assumptions only. Pointless discussion.

Seriously? Are you really that determined to maintain your willful ignorance of S&W history, and arrogantly unwilling to consider that you might be wrong? There is a wealth of information about this topic on this very site, not to mention the historical information that has been published in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson (SCSW). If you can trouble yourself to actually read about it.

Let me ask you this. Are you familiar with the Colt model name "32 New Police"? How about the S&W model "32 Regulation Police"? Ever wonder where those model names came from? Or why there were thousands (possibly tens of thousands?) of those models of revolvers produced - or who they were sold to? Do you need to be spoon fed information - or do you have the ability to access the wealth of information about the history of these guns and the cartridge they fire on the internet - in order to educate yourself?

Maybe. Or maybe not.

Either way...

So, here are just a couple of the available references I was able to pull up by spending about one whole minute to type the words "32 Smith & Wesson Long" into a Google search.
.32 S&W Long - Wikipedia
Note the second paragraph under the HISTORY section:

When he was the New York City Police Commissioner, Theodore Roosevelt standardized the department's use of the Colt New Police revolver. The cartridge was then adopted by several other northeastern U.S. police departments.[4] The .32 Long is well known as an unusually accurate cartridge. This reputation led Police Commissioner Roosevelt to select it as an expedient way to increase officers' accuracy with their revolvers in New York City.

And here's another regarding why Colt called their version of the 32 SWL the Colt 32 New POLICE
The .32 S&W Long/.32 Colt New Police - American Handgunner
A quote from that particular article:

There was a time when the .32 Long/.32 Colt New Police was looked upon as being a viable self-defense and law enforcement cartridge.

Is that enough to get you started on the road to educating yourself on the history of this cartridge, or do you need to be spoon fed some more? Just FYI, the 32 Colt New Police and 32 S&W Long are the same cartridge. Colt just didn't want to roll-mark "S&W Long" on their revolvers, so they gave the cartridge their own name. But they are still essentially two different names for the same cartridge.

Would you like for me to provide you similar links to HISTORICAL information about the 32ACP as the standard cartridge for European military and police forces sidearms during the same period? You know, the use of guns like the 1903 Colt Hammerless, or the Walther PPK as standard Military officer sidearms in WWII? And as standard police service weapons throughout Europe decades afterwards? Because I can do that Google search and post the results for you too if necessary.

Or do you think that maybe now you could find that information for yourself?

Just let me know. I'm always happy to help.

Look, I'm not arguing that there aren't newer and better alternatives for SD than the 32 SWL. But what I AM saying is that not everyone is young and healthy and strong enough to be proficient with those alternatives. Are hot 9mm, or even 38 Specials better SD alternatives? Sure. IF your physical condition is good enough that you can shoot them well and accurately.

BUT if you aren't able to do that, then I feel that a 32ACP, 32 SWL, or better yet, a 32 H&R magnum, may be the "next best" viable alternatives, and that they should not be dismissed as lightly or cavalierly as you seem to want to. Again, one size doesn't fit all, but the 32 SWL is an appropriate and viable alternative for some.

Does that make sense?

 

[alwslate]

As previously referenced, .32 caliber sidearms were the standard for law enforcement (and many militarizes) for at least half a century, both in this country AND on the European continent.
Look it up for yourself.

Yep, .32 autos that is. A big difference between the velocity and penetration between the .32 ACP FMJ ammo from full size holster guns and the anemic .32 Long soft lead swaged bullets used in old weak revolvers that used to be very common in this country and others.

 

[Warren Sear]

...here are just a couple of the available references I was able to pull up by spending about one whole minute to type the words "32 Smith & Wesson Long" into a Google search.
.32 S&W Long - Wikipedia
Note the second paragraph under the HISTORY section:


And here's another regarding why Colt called their version of the 32 SWL the Colt 32 New POLICE
The .32 S&W Long/.32 Colt New Police - American Handgunner...

I appreciated those links. Thank you for posting.

Now I want to get a 100 grain SWC bullet mold!

 

[BC38]

Yep, .32 autos that is. A big difference between the velocity and penetration between the .32 ACP FMJ ammo from full size holster guns and the anemic .32 Long soft lead swaged bullets used in old weak revolvers that used to be very common in this country and others.

Yeah, read post #69 - including the linked articles about law enforcement above.

Police carried those "weak" revolvers for a long time.

 

[Whistlebritches]

I would throw this out there. It occurs, that the round our soldiers have in the CAR, may not even be legal for deer, in some states, even with a sporting bullet.

It doesnt take a professor, to observe my fathers generation, 5 foot 9, was average, maybe 160 lbs out of the shower.
Yes, that was about the average.

We have perps now, 180, to 225 is not uncommon. Some of these "kids", that could not quite make the football team, raised on sugar, are still linebacker in size.

And, they may be higher than a kite, on what ever "painkiller".

So if we are limited to small bore , light recoil guns, we might ought to hold on their headlights.

 

[BC38]

I would throw this out there. It occurs, that the round our soldiers have in the CAR, may not even be legal for deer, in some states, even with a sporting bullet.

It doesnt take a professor, to observe my fathers generation, 5 foot 9, was average, maybe 160 lbs out of the shower.
Yes, that was about the average.

We have perps now, 180, to 225 is not uncommon. Some of these "kids", that could not quite make the football team, raised on sugar, are still linebacker in size.

And, they may be higher than a kite, on what ever "painkiller".

So if we are limited to small bore , light recoil guns, we might ought to hold on their headlights.

You are right about the average size of men in the last century. In the 1950's & 1960's it was indeed just under 5'9" and about 165 pounds.

But today the average is just OVER 5'9" and the average weight is just over 195 pounds.
Average Weight for Men: Age, Height, Body Composition & More
Average Height for Men in U.S. and Worldwide: How to Measure
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/body-measurements.htm
Not really that big of a difference - about an inch taller and 30 pounds heavier. If you just look at the averages.

FWIW, there have always been lots of big guys, at least in the mid-west where I grew up. On both sides of my own family the men have nearly all been 6'0" or taller and weighed at least 220 pounds for at least the last 3 generations. Some as tall as 6'4" and tipping the scales at over 300 pounds.

Maybe we're just exceptional

The drugs issue is certainly a valid concern.
FWIW, alcohol is about as bad as anything for making people "10 foot tall & bullet proof". My buddies and I used to drink and fight a lot, and with a good drunk on, I can tell you the right person can take some pretty serious damage and keep coming - don't ask me how I know.

Your comment about shot placement is definitely spot on.

 

[BSA1]

Look, I'm not arguing that there aren't newer and better alternatives for SD than the 32 SWL. But what I AM saying is that not everyone is young and healthy and strong enough to be proficient with those alternatives. Are hot 9mm, or even 38 Specials better SD alternatives? Sure. IF your physical condition is good enough that you can shoot them well and accurately.

BUT if you aren't able to do that, then I feel that a 32ACP, 32 SWL, or better yet, a 32 H&R magnum, may be viable alternatives, and that they should not be dismissed as lightly or cavalierly as you seem to want to. Again, one size doesn't fit all, but the 32 SWL is an appropriate and viable alternative for some.

Actually there are non-firearm weapons that are more effective and have more stopping power than the .32 SWL and ACP.

The following incident occurred when I was a Parole Officer;

A recent graduate of the State Pen (not a university) saw a elderly lady walking home with her groceries. He followed her into her home and attacked her. I do not know the exact sequence of events that followed inside the home but the Police were summoned. Upon arrival they found him laying unconscious on the kitchen floor with the elderly lady standing next to him holding a frying pan in one hand and a large kitchen knife in the other. It sure was funny seeing him appear in court wearing a neck brace and sporting a large black eye.

The blow from the frying pan had 100% stopping power. Arguably 101+% since it left him totally incapable of continuing his attack.

Since you are arguing for use of small caliber firearm for self-defense by the elderly, weak or have disabilities. I personally choose the .22 Magnum over the .32 SWL and ACP. Hornady, Winchester and Speer all make ammunition specifically designed for use in revolvers with barrels as short as 2”. Greater ammunition capacity (8 rounds in a Taurus), less recoil (er, what recoil?) and a cartridge/bullet combination are specifically described for self-defense from a small revolver.

I am assuming that based on your arguments you rely on the .32 SWL or ACP for self-defense. It is not my position to judge your choices.

 

[Alk8944]

BSA1,

You are far too dismissive of so-called "mouse guns". In the past .32 Colt New Police, their variant of .32 S&W Long, was the official caliber for NYPD when Theodore Roosevelt was Police Commissioner. European police agencies for many years used .32 A.C.P. as the duty caliber with good results. Even Germany during WWII used many .32 Auto pistols as service weapons.

There was a time where it was widely reported that more people had been killed by .32 caliber pistols, principally "Saturday Night Specials", than any other caliber! There are two factors to lethality, bullet placement and number! Everyone talks about "Stopping Power", but There are no handguns that guarantee a one-shot-stop, including .44 Magnum! The one thing rarely mentioned or considered is numbers! Often one shot will not be sufficient to discourage an assailant, but, combined with bullet placement, emptying the gun into the assailant will almost always put an end to the festivities. regardless of caliber! For some reason this is rarely discussed.

The frying pan you cited has more stopping power than even the .44 magnum when properly applied, but not nearly the range. The oft cited admonishment to always bring a gun to a gunfight is still a good one. To shoot until the job is finished is another.

I was privy to many shootings in my time "On the job". Pretty much in the majority of them a single shot with a .22 caliber firearm was sufficient to close the event! Don't ridicule someone who carries a .32, he may be far more capable of getting the job done with it than even you with a 9mm or .40.

 

[BC38]

Actually there are non-firearm weapons that are more effective and have more stopping power than the .32 SWL and ACP.

The following incident occurred when I was a Parole Officer;

A recent graduate of the State Pen (not a university) saw a elderly lady walking home with her groceries. He followed her into her home and attacked her. I do not know the exact sequence of events that followed inside the home but the Police were summoned. Upon arrival they found him laying unconscious on the kitchen floor with the elderly lady standing next to him holding a frying pan in one hand and a large kitchen knife in the other. It sure was funny seeing him appear in court wearing a neck brace and sporting a large black eye.

The blow from the frying pan had 100% stopping power. Arguably 101+% since it left him totally incapable of continuing his attack.

Since you are arguing for use of small caliber firearm for self-defense by the elderly, weak or have disabilities. I personally choose the .22 Magnum over the .32 SWL and ACP. Hornady, Winchester and Speer all make ammunition specifically designed for use in revolvers with barrels as short as 2”. Greater ammunition capacity (8 rounds in a Taurus), less recoil (er, what recoil?) and a cartridge/bullet combination are specifically described for self-defense from a small revolver.

I am assuming that based on your arguments you rely on the .32 SWL or ACP for self-defense. It is not my position to judge your choices.

Nope. I have many different concealed carry guns, but the 3 most frequently in my rotation are
P365 - most of the time.
PT145 - when I feel the need to carry "heavy".
P3AT - when deep concealment is absolutely essential.

I haven't reached the point in life that my infirmities require me to select a low-recoil SD alternative - not yet anyway.

HOWEVER, given the signs of arthritis I'm seeing in my hands and wrists (mainly due to old injuries - a couple of "boxer's fractures" and a pretty badly broken wrist) I can certainly see that as being a possibility in my future. Assuming I live that long.

I once read somewhere that, "The first and most important thing is to HAVE a gun when you need it. The second most important thing is shot placement (being able to hit what you aim for). Everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin".

That's my philosophy. I'll carry something more effective than a .32 SWL as long as I can be proficient with it. But when the time comes that the .32 SWL is the stoutest thing I can reliably handle, I'll choose that over being unarmed.

Hope that clarifies the point I have been trying to make.

FWIW, while your anecdote about the old lady armed with a frying pan and a kitchen knife is certainly interesting, you have to admit it is kind of an outlier. Personally I'd choose a gun firing even a 22 short over a frying pan when I have to defend myself. Wouldn't you agree?

I'd challenge any bad guy to a duel where I am armed with a 22 and they get a frying pan and a kitchen knife. Think I'd get any takers?

 

[gerhard1]

Here is my Model 30 that I got from an Enid gun shop a few years back. While it is not a powerhouse, the 32 S&W Long cartridge it fires still has a viable role in self-defense.

 

[BC38]

Here is my Model 30 that I got from an Enid gun shop a few years back. While it is not a powerhouse, the 32 S&W Long cartridge it fires still has a viable role in self-defense.

Yeah, it worked well enough for "Rough Rider" Teddy and the officers of the NYC police force that reported to him for a few decades.

 

[BSA1]

I once read somewhere that, "The first and most important thing is to HAVE a gun when you need it”.

I believe the first and most important thing is to have ENOUGH gun.

FWIW, while your anecdote about the old lady armed with a frying pan and a kitchen knife is certainly interesting, you have to admit it is kind of an outlier. Personally I'd choose a gun firing even a 22 short over a frying pan when I have to defend myself. Wouldn't you agree?

Nope. Choosing a inadequate tool could give a false sense of confidence.

I read that during the Civil War it was common for Officers to carry S&W Model 1 Tip Up barrel revolvers in .22 Short for self-defense. Seeing how that was the only self-contained pistol cartridge at that time about the only other choice was a C&B revolver with all of the problems of reliability and dreadfully slow time to reload. I have never read how often it was actually used and how effective it was in combat. It may been used more as a last ditch effort to avoid being captured or killed.

We live in the golden age of firearms and ammunition development. A lot of hard lessons have been learned since the .32 Long was introduced in 1896. It seems very unwise to ignore the hard experiences that have happened over the past 127 years.

I'd challenge any bad guy to a duel where I am armed with a 22 and they get a frying pan and a kitchen knife.

Tombstone courage huh? What makes you so confident that your attacker will die before you will? I will put my money on a cast iron frying pan stopping a .22 Short (and even the .32 Long).

 

[Whistlebritches]

Any following or having read gun history, military and police weapons, often follow what ever money trail, rather than the actual best weapon.

Not saying that explains the NY police choice, but maybe.

Read up on the Glock for example, while way better than a Berretta, 92, they sold like ice cream, cause the "low" price, didnt hurt.

And somehow, a lot of our military ended up with the 92....A local NAVY helo pilot, who then were issued a SIG 45, was told. "this is just too make you feel better, you wont be able to hit anything "
Circa 1995 or so.

Sad but true story from a Navy pilot, at NAS Fallon NV

Rarely does one get a reliable , cheap gun, the AK being another exception.

One no free lunch fact, short barrels rarely break that 1000 FPS to cause expansion, is rarely achieved, in any of the non magnum rounds.

Anyone relying on non mag snub guns, gives up velocity big time. The old 40 foot per inch difference is still pretty close.

The old maxim "no free lunch" applies to guns, in spades.

A Govt Model, or a Hi Power, is just plain heavy, compared to a J frame, of any caliber.

So, "citizens", tend to carry small.

Of course if we can choose weapons in a katy bar the door event, a short shotgun, should likely be our choice.

Long guns, offensive, short guns, defensive, is still a logical rule of thumb

 

[BC38]

I believe the first and most important thing is to have ENOUGH gun.



Nope. Choosing a inadequate tool could give a false sense of confidence.

I read that during the Civil War it was common for Officers to carry S&W Model 1 Tip Up barrel revolvers in .22 Short for self-defense. Seeing how that was the only self-contained pistol cartridge at that time about the only other choice was a C&B revolver with all of the problems of reliability and dreadfully slow time to reload. I have never read how often it was actually used and how effective it was in combat. It may been used more as a last ditch effort to avoid being captured or killed.

We live in the golden age of firearms and ammunition development. A lot of hard lessons have been learned since the .32 Long was introduced in 1896. It seems very unwise to ignore the hard experiences that have happened over the past 127 years.



Tombstone courage huh? What makes you so confident that your attacker will die before you will? I will put my money on a cast iron frying pan stopping a .22 Short (and even the .32 Long).

LOL, I'd be banking on my ability to put 6, 8, maybe even 10 rounds of 22 into their upper torso and/or face before they get within striking distance with the frying pan.

If it were 6 rounds of 32 SWL, that would be even better IMO.

Do you think that in the proposed duel my opponent would be using the pan as armor instead of as a weapon? Unless that is the Hollyweird fantasy you're entertaining, then the ability of the round to penetrate the skillet is totally irrelevant.