Need educated on Pre-27 before I buy

[ronnymc204]

I would like to begin by expressing my thanks to this forum and all who contribute to the knowledge I have learned.

I have located a Pre-27 8 3/8” that appears unfired. Serial number places it 1954-1955 according to the SCSW 4th edition.

Asking price is $1599. Out the door price with sales tax will be $1731.

I located this about 3 weeks ago while out of town. It came into a pawn shop while I was purchasing a ANIB 19-3 6” with all paperwork and tools. I was asked if I would like to see a model 27 that had just arrived in a presentation case. Of course I said yes.

The salesman brought out a cardboard shipping box with a Smith & Wesson end label marked Model 27, TS, TH, TT, RR, WO.
The label has serial number S125755.

The salesman pulls a wooden presentation case from this box and inside is a 5-screw pre-27. No model number inside the crane/yoke.

I am told since it just arrived they have to wait 3 weeks before they can sell. They agreed to put my name on the box and call when priced and available. I received the phone call today and was given the price. I have a hold placed on it as I write this.

After researching a little more, I am confused why a Smith & Wesson end label would be marked “27” before this revolver was indeed a model 27. Also according to the SCSW 4th edition, wooden presentation boxes did not appear until 1960, 5-6 years after this revolver was manufactured.

My questions:

1. Should I buy it anyway for the asking price regardless the discrepancies?

2. Is it possible this was a late shipment and did indeed leave the factory in the presentation box?

3. Did someone dupe the previous owner into believing this was something it is not?

As I have read many times on this forum, anything is possible.

This is not local to me, so if the consensus is to buy I will have to make a trip in the near future.

They did allow me to take one photo of the box label while there and I will include with this post.

Thanks in advance for replies and opinions.

 

[alwslate]

Sounds like a phony package put together by the seller to increase the price.

 

[DARE]

I have not heard of any 1954-1955 guns with wooden presentation case. Not an expert so could be wrong. I think the asking price for a mint or unfired .357 Magnum (Pre-27) is a good one with no accessories. Model numbers were announced in 1956-1957 I think. Don't think any were shipped until 1957 or 1958. Also the 5th screw was dropped I think in 1955 or 1956.

 

[schutz5]

Maybe it is a cusp gun -transition.

Often guns are manufactured and not packaged or shipped until much later..
an idiosyncrasy.

"The salesman pulls a wooden presentation case from this box and inside is a 5-screw pre-27. No model number inside the crane/yoke."

was the 5 screw available in the long tube barrel??

update: just looked at the 1955 gun digest and yes the 357 magnum model was offered in 3.5,5,6.5, and 8 3/8 barrel
choice of any S&W target front sights.

bright blue or nickel $109.33

 

[ronnymc204]

I should add, I spoke with the original seller. He had just made the deal to sell 3 old Smith’s (including the one at question here) while I was buying the 19-3. He caught me outside and we visited for some time.

His story:
His Grandfather passed about 1 year ago. He was an avid collector of Ruger, Smith & Wesson, and Winchester. He had an extensive collection of new unfired and shooter grade. The family has chosen to keep all the shooter grade as those are what the family remembers shooting and hunting with him. Those have sentimental value. The collector grade have no sentimental value as most of the heirs had never set eyes on them prior to his passing.

I have seen the tattered spiral bound notebook his grandfather kept of his collection. Many nice specimens. A friend of mine and I have been in talks with him about the possibility of purchasing more of the collection.

 

[handejector]

You're not giving enough data.
First, does this Pre 27 have the same serial number as the label? You did not state it that way.
Does it indeed have a TT, TH, TG, RR, and WO?
IF the grips are Targets, are they Diamond Targets? If so, which variant?
IF it has all those Target features and the RR and WO, it was probably a special order. However, it is still too early for the case.
ONE possibility---- the gun was sent back to S&W years later to be upgraded with the Target features and new sights. The owner MAY have purchased the Presentation Case and had it shipped back to him that way. It would probably have been refinished at that time, so check for Factory service marks!
Another possibility--- The case and gun were put together and the label is phony IF it matches the gun's number. Are all the tools and papers with the package? If so, you can seel the case for anywhere from $250-350 or more depending on the style and condition.

 

[ronnymc204]

You're not giving enough data.
First, does this Pre 27 have the same serial number as the label? You did not state it that way.
Does it indeed have a TT, TH, TG, RR, and WO?
IF the grips are Targets, are they Diamond Targets? If so, which variant?

Sorry. I meant to share the serial number on the label did indeed match the serial number on the revolver.

It was over three weeks ago and I can’t remember if it has TT, TH, TG, RR, and WO, or if the grips were diamond targets.

I’m not sure if they would have allowed me to remove the grips to look for factory service marks.

 

[handejector]

I’m not sure if they would have allowed me to remove the grips to look for factory service marks.

Probably not, but check the back of the cylinder and inside the barrel shroud for possible marks:
Star
Diamond
B inside a diamond
Circle


Also, the windage and elevation screws on the rear sight were flat in the 5 screw era. Later, they are domed. So if the sight has domed screws, it would indicate a later change.

 

[Doc44]

The cardboard shipping carton and mahogany presentation case date to 1960 or later and were not available when the .357 Magnum (Pre-Model 27) was made and shipped. The serial number dates the revolver to late 1954 to sometime in early 1955. Depending on when the revolver actually shipped, the target trigger may or may not be original to the gun as it was not available until early 1955. The correct target stocks would be diamond targets made of walnut without the relieved area on the left stock panel. The target hammer could be original to the revolver as are the red ramp and white outline. This revolver has lots of special order features that should be verified by a letter of authenticity.

Bill

 

[Nightowl]

To me, this is a case of "buy the gun, not the story"! A .357 Magnum, unfired is worth the asking price, the other stuff is just that, and is likely put together after the gun shipped. I would be careful of a reblue in this case also, so look it over carefully.

The .357 Magnums of that time normally shipped with standard trigger, semi target hammer, and Magna stocks, in a gold cardboard box. The box was not large enough to ship with the target stocks attached. It was not until late 1975 that the factory began shipping the model 27 with full target in the wood presentation case. If it was special ordered with full target, only a letter will tell.
If I didn't already have one, I would certainly buy it with the intent of shooting it. They are great fun to shoot.

 

[ronnymc204]

After further research, it appears the label on the end of the shipping box is incorrect according to SCSW 4th. If my information is correct, the label in the photo attached to my original post wasn’t used until the mid 1960’s on.

I have reached out to the pawn shop and asked for photos. I will post them if/when received.

 

[ronnymc204]

Here are the photos the pawn shop provided. After closer examination, this revolver has indeed been fired and the top strap looks to have been drilled and tapped. There also appears to be a mark near the serial number on the barrel that may indicate factory service or rework.

Is it still worth the asking price of $1599 plus tax ($1731) as a shooter?

Thanks to all for your input.

 

[stansdds]

Ummmm... do the roll marks on the right side of the frame look too shallow or is it just me thinking this one has been refinished? The extra screw hole in the top strap certainly looks like it was drilled and tapped for a scope. There is also significant flame cutting of the top strap, yet the forcing cone looks pristine. The top strap says it's shot a lot, the barrel doesn't. Given the conditions of the top strap indicating much use, how can the finish be so perfect? I dunno, to me there seems to be a degree of hinkyness with this one.

 

[Truckman]

I would allow somebody else the opportunity for this one......Ben

 

[bruce5781]

Ummmm... do the roll marks on the right side of the frame look too shallow or is it just me thinking this one has been refinished? The extra screw hole in the top strap certainly looks like it was drilled and tapped for a scope. There is also significant flame cutting of the top strap, yet the forcing cone looks pristine. The top strap says it's shot a lot, the barrel doesn't. Given the conditions of the top strap indicating much use, how can the finish be so perfect? I dunno, to me there seems to be a degree of hinkyness with this one.

As I recall, on all of the pre 27's I have had, the roll mark was "proud".

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

 

[Nightowl]

Most .357 Magnums of that time period had a Patridge front sight, not the red ramp. The stocks are later football cut out, too. I'd say it'a a $1000 shooter.

 

[handejector]

Someone had the gun upgraded into what he wanted it to be. Probably built to match the config of his 44 Magnum.
I bet there are service marks and probably a date under the grips.
The windage screw is domed. It should be flat.

This B mark on the rear of the shroud makes me sure the barrel is a replacement.
The forcing cone is way longer than normal---

The pin appears to have had extra tapping---

 

[GypsmJim]

I dunno. I have mixed emotions here. It looks like a revolver that I would be happy to own....regardless of the discrepancies. Except of course that I already have one. I just love those 8 inchers.

Maybe it's one of the "not too expensive, just bought too soon" kinda things. Obviously, it's over-priced, but then again how often do pre-27s come around.

If I t were me I'd bring $1200 cash and try to sway the shop.

 

[rct269]

Great word there-----"hinkyness"---rather appropriate to boot!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[ronnymc204]

I dunno. I have mixed emotions here. It looks like a revolver that I would be happy to own....regardless of the discrepancies. Except of course that I already have one. I just love those 8 inchers.

Maybe it's one of the "not too expensive, just bought too soon" kinda things. Obviously, it's over-priced, but then again how often do pre-27s come around.

If I t were me I'd bring $1200 cash and try to sway the shop.

My thoughts exactly. I currently have a 3.5” and 5” from the early to mid 50’s. The 3.5” was allegedly (no provenance) a duty weapon for a retired Special Ranger of the Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers Association and the 5” has been factory refinished. That being said, I don’t mind it being a shooter if the price is right.

There were two of us that had our names on this and I was on the top of the list. I notified them today to pass it along to the other individual. I will check back with them in a few weeks and see if it is still there and possibly make an offer.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.