Cold temps and pistol powders

[N-frame-guy]

I know from my rifle reloading that some powders show some fairly wide swings in performance at opposite ends of the thermometer.

Is this behavior also seen in the pistol powders? I lean toward mild to medium loads in much of my handgun shooting and just came back from running a few different loads over the chrono. Lower speeds than I expected but I have to sit down and compare my conditions and shooting iron to what the factory folks were using in their tests, such as me with a revolver and them with a universal receiver and barrel. It was 27 degrees on the range.

Just curious if this is a thing to be aware of going forward. I did a search for my question and nothing relevant popped up that I could find here.

 

[Warren Sear]

I don't think 27 degrees F would be cold enough to make any difference.

0 degrees F and below could start to make a difference. I have fired guns in -20 degree weather and did not notice anything different in shooting, but then I did not bother with setting up my chronograph to objectively test.

 

[NYlakesider]

Many years ago When I bought my summer camp, I found some old WW2 .38 pistol ammo (400 Rounds) high on a back shelf in a closet. I called the previous owner because the transaction was real friendly even though by law it was now my ammo.

Told him about the ammo and he said he forgot it was there. Told me thanks and you shoot it up. Ammo was there at least 20 years and it went down to -30F in winter and 90+ in summer. I noticed nothing unusual about firing this ammo. They all sounded good and the recoil was all the same.

 

[OKFC05]

Unless you are working on the edge of a required power factor for competition, or using some odd powder for the application, temp is not going to be your problem, based on 26 years of experience running chrono for competition in all conditions, -15 to +110.
Expecting your speeds from YOUR gun to match results from a 10 inch test barrel will get you in trouble every time.

 

[mtgianni]

Several of the older IMR stick powders were thought to be temperature sensitive. Bob Hagel wrote some on this but I forget which ones he named. I think that was part of the development of the short cut powders.

I believe you're OK with flake and ball powders in pistol cartridges. In my younger days I hunted in -25 F temps but went inside in -30. A larger concern in very cold temperatures in a handgun for self defense might be the many layers of clothing causing bullets to not act as designed.

 

[N-frame-guy]

Running similar components, but not the same as the books as listed, here is what I've come up with.
357 mag, from Hogdons 25th, 158 grain jacketed, HS6 at 8.5 grains, magnum primer, they show 1150. I forgot to see what they used but from my M28, 6", I got 921.

357, from the Hornady #5, they used a 7 1/2" revolver. I loaded Horn. #1040 LSWC, American Select 3.7, they're showing somewhere between 750 to 800, I'm at 697 so that's pretty close.

38 special from the same M28; from Hornady #3 they used a 4" revolver.
Horn. #1020 HBWC, 2.8 grains Bullseye, they have about 775, I'm at 665.

38 special same book. Horn. #1040 LSWC, 4.0 grains Herco at about 725, I'm at 555.

I don't see the Hornady bullet numbers listed any more but those item numbers should be correct, purchased long ago for sure.

Seems like quite a difference when I look at the numbers. Both the Herco and the Bullseye powders date from the mid 90's, stored properly in my care. Herco was loaded about 5 years ago, the Bullseye loads about a year and a half ago. The HS6 loads were from '97 and somehow got overlooked on the shelf. I feel that I matched powder from that era with books from the same era.
All the average speeds were from 10 shots each over the new Garmin.

Am I wrong to think these are well off the mark? Or chalk it up to different weapon, different conditions, etc.

 

[Alk8944]

My recollection is that the two propellants that give problems with low temperatures are H-110 and Blue Dot. One of my friends experienced actual squibs with Blue Dot. This was at around 0 degrees F. as I recall. He died about 25 years ago so I can't ask him!

The way to avoid this issue is always use magnum primers or even rifle primers where possible. All propellants are both temperature and position sensitive to some degree, but using proper primers to ignite them usually is adequate.

 

[Nevada Ed]

My last test out in the sagebrush was in 40 degree weather and the ammo
sat out in the open, on a sunless day, with a 18 mph wind.

My 147 gr light loads worked ok but my light, starting load of Bullseye powder with a 124 gr FMJ with a OAL of 1,14", (918-951 fps) had one failure to eject.

In the 115gr plated RN test at a OAL of 1.14", with a 13 pound recoil spring;
3.8 grs of Bullseye ( 923-957 fps) had two F/E and
3.6 grs of Red Dot (932-1041 fps) had one f/E, from my 5" pistol.

This was the first time these light target loads, ever had problems ejecting, from this pistol.

I will admit these are bare bone loads with a heavy 13 pound spring
and they will get more powder, for future loads.

Looks like a PF of 118 is as low as this pistol's slide will allow, for 100% cycling?

 

[Forrest r]

The old ww452/trap 100 was definitely temperature sensitive. This lead to the development of the WST powder.

 

[Chuck Edwards]

Way back when I was shooting USPSA, W231/HP38 was known to be temperature-sensitive, giving lower velocities in colder weather.

I've always found that loading manual velocities were sorta in the ballpark at best. I'll depend on the minimum and maximum charge weights, but that's it.

 

[taz666]

Cold air slows bullets, too.

This is a good read on the propellant side of things:
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/temperature-effects-gunpowder/389257

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Recall an article in Shooting Times in the 1970s, one of the writers experimenting with Blue Dot in .357, found it very cold sensitive, pressures shot up, flattened primers, etc.

 

[taz666]

I hope we're not using Herc Blue Dot data for Alliant Blue Dot powder.
Formulas change over the years and old reloading manuals help get the fires started around my house

 

[chiefdave]

Many years ago When I bought my summer camp, I found some old WW2 .38 pistol ammo (400 Rounds) high on a back shelf in a closet. I called the previous owner because the transaction was real friendly even though by law it was now my ammo.

Told him about the ammo and he said he forgot it was there. Told me thanks and you shoot it up. Ammo was there at least 20 years and it went down to -30F in winter and 90+ in summer. I noticed nothing unusual about firing this ammo. They all sounded good and the recoil was all the same.

While in the Navy (1966-1988) we were issued 38Spl and 45ACP that was head stamped from the WWII time frame. It had been stored in outdoor bunkers. In all of those years of annual qualifications I cannot recall a single ammunition malfunction.

 

[alwslate]

The old ww452/trap 100 was definitely temperature sensitive. This lead to the development of the WST powder.

I still have some WW452AA powder. it is a great powder for std. pressure .38 spl loads and is not position sensitive like many other powders. It was marketed by Winchester as a 12 GA Trap powder. It is very fine grained and tended to leak from the slide bar and bushing method of metering and loading shotshells. That's why it was replaced by WST powder that is supposed to use the same load data. I have a can of WST and it clearly is inferior to 452 as a std. pressure handgun powder.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The old ww452/trap 100 was definitely temperature sensitive. This lead to the development of the WST powder.

I remember one winter trap Team shoot, where I left my ammo outside, in the back of my car.

The frist round at the 16 yard line with my 1145 fps loads, in the 31 degree weather
dribbled out of my barrel at maybe, 1090 fps ?

I missed two birds, trying to adjust to the slower loads and energys.
All my fellow team members were snickering at me, and laughing
at the "Powder Puff" loads, even though we were loosing birds.

After shooting, I took two boxs of ammo into the club house and dumped the shells on a table, to warm up.

A lesson lurned with Alliant powders and cold weather.

 

[alwslate]

Back when I was able to shoot trap our local club had a winter league that we shot at night under the lights. Sounds like a good idea in the fall but not so much during the winter with near zero temperatures. My handloads were like Ed's One ounce at about 1145 fps. I had a few bloopers with Tite Wad, GreenDot and PB powders. Most of my trap loads were with Bullseye despite my fellow shooters telling me I couldn't use it. I loaded many thousands of shells and went through many 8 lb jugs of Bullseye. Never had one single blooper with Bullseye in any weather.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I used Bullseye with 1 oz loads at 1200 fps but had to load them on my

Mec Jr. , due to the fine powder granuals, that went every where on my progressive, machine. (be right back)

I used the Peters "Blue Magic hull, back in the old days with;
1oz 1145fps Mec #21 at 16.5 grs of Bullseye 12so wad.
1oz 1200fps Mec #23 at 18 grs with a cb1100 wad.

 

[Forrest r]

I still have some WW452AA powder. it is a great powder for std. pressure .38 spl loads and is not position sensitive like many other powders. It was marketed by Winchester as a 12 GA Trap powder. It is very fine grained and tended to leak from the slide bar and bushing method of metering and loading shotshells. That's why it was replaced by WST powder that is supposed to use the same load data. I have a can of WST and it clearly is inferior to 452 as a std. pressure handgun powder.

Never used any of the aa452 for reloading shotgun shells. But I couldn't even begin to count how many 38spl/wc loads I put down range using that powder.

Used an rcbs little dandy to load them with. Never had any issues with powder leaking out the sides.

 

[max503]

You got me to thinking. I remember standing on a frozen lake and shooting my J frame with wadcutter reloads. I could see the boolits going through the air. It never occurred to me maybe they were going slow because of the cold. I do not remember what powder I was using. My guess is either Bullseye, Unique, or 700X.