Marines use of Winchester 97s in the Pacific?

[Gene L]

Model 97's were made until 1957, quite a long run. I don't know when the Gov't purchased them but suspect more than a few were bought in the mid 1940's. Quite a bit of WWII / Korean vintage material was used in Viet Nam.

Mine ( my Grandfathers ) was made in 1954; he bought it used in 1956 with a Simmons vent rib (aftermarket)

Ours had a handguard and a bayonet lug.
I had an Ithica 12 ga. Not a military one, but a sawed off one front and back. It was given to me by my Company Commander when he derosed. I carried it in my pack as a last ditch weapon.

 

[DWalt]

A good overview of shotguns in use by the U. S. Military from the Philippine Insurrection through Vietnam from a 2002 article published in the American Rifleman: Combat Shotguns Of The Vietnam War | An Official Journal Of The NRA

 

[Harmonica]

--I was listening to a podcast today about Marine scout-snipers on Saipan and the guest speaker says ''..the Marines' favorite jungle weapon was the shotgun'''..I said it was better than the Springfield, especially at night in the jungle
...now, I would argue that the Thompson was better.....a lot more ammo, etc..
...the guest says they were issued to the scout-sniper unit...and he says it was ''technically against the rule of law...''....ok!!
...starting around the 29:00 mark to 29:50 in this link:
40 Thieves on Saipan: The Elite Marine Scout-Snipers in One of WWII's Bloodiest Battles
....

 

[DWalt]

He said, I think, that using a shotgun was technically against the Geneva Convention. Wrong on two counts. First it was The Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention. Second, the US was not a signatory to that part of The Hague Convention (declaration IV,3) prohibiting certain projectiles in warfare, so nothing about it applied to the US. He was just attempting to sound smarter than he was.

During WWI, the Germans objected to the US use of shotguns as being contrary to The Hague Convention. It didn't get anywhere.

 

[Heinz]

There are a lot of "in my understanding" comments relative to the M97 lack of reliability. The only time the M97 fails to perform is when some klutz who does not know what he/she is doing tries to field strip it.

My father was the Motor Mechanic on a landing craft tank (LCT) in the Solomons campaign. These were the Navy's all purpose amphibious supply vehicle. Dad told me a lot of this, most of which I have able to verify. The LCT crew regularly "lost" army supplies that ended up in the marine supply line. These included M1 rifles and ammo in 8 round clips, Model 97 shotguns, Thomson Guns and officer's fresh rations. They had two 97's, two Thompsons and a rack full of Model of 1917s on the LCT. The 1917 was navy issue. The shotguns and sub guns were kept down in the engine locker where nobody but a motor Mac would go. Thompson submachine guns also regularly made it into marine supply dump. Dad said "we gave the marines a lot of s---, because they we not sailors, but when we dropped that ramp they all ran off into hell without blinking. We did what we could to take care of them." The LCT's with their Ensign skippers and 10 man crews developed a reputation for being unruly, ill mannered, and the way to get things where the Navy wanted them, There is a book called "The Amphibians are Coming" that is a good read on the Alligator Navy. Until I read that I thought a lot of Dad's stuff was just sea stories

 

[Heinz]

Here are a couple more shots of what the Pacific Campaign looked like from someone's Brownie Box

 

[Toyman]

I bought this book many years ago. Good information on shotguns.

 

[Fordman71]

Around 1911 IIRC a Winchester employee went to a rack of 97's and grabbed one for the ammunition testing room. In the 1940's the firing pin return spring appeared to be getting weak, so they replaced it. It was then that they calculated that it had fired one and a quarter million rounds of ammo. The gun was a full choke model, so they did a pattern test and after all those rounds the pattern was still tighter than full. They called the gun "Old Reliable" and had quite an advertising campaign with it as the center of attention.

Over the course of 29 years , that would make it 1940, They advertised the Winchester Model 1897 had fired 1,247,000 rounds and would still shoot a passing pattern for the gauge, barrel length & choke. George Madis' book about the Model 12 tells this in the opening of the book. I'll try and post a picture.

 

[Ameshawki]

A little sidetrack if I may. For the later campaigns of the Pacific, specifically Saipan and Okinawa, were the Marines still using '03s, or had they all upgraded to carbines and Garands. I ask because I once knew a Saipan veteran (he didn't want to talk about his time there) and a friend's father, who I never met, was most likely at Sugar Loaf, based on my research of his unit, during the Okinawa campaign of 1945.

Upgraded for the most part. A few 1903s were still around, mostly for rifle grenades and sniper use.

 

[Old Corp]

Cannot add much to the discussion of the military use of the M97. I did luck onto one that came from an estate the LGS I was working p/t at had come in.
It is an original 12 ga. 'Police Model' with a 20" cyl. barrel, and in surprisingly good condition, like perhaps it spent much of it's life in a armory rack or similar. S/N shows it to be a c.mid-1930's gun.

A lot of fun to shoot and has gotten some interesting looks at a Sporting Clays facility I shoot at occasionally.
A very strange facet of this gun was found when I first got it and was trying out different defense loads in it at the range - buck, slugs, etc.

Found that if using a very consistent hold, using the front bead only, and from a bench - it would literally stack 1 oz. Foster slugs atop one another out to almost 100 yards. Completely unexpected for a shotgun rapidly approaching the 100 year mark.

 

[AJ]

This is Bruce Canfield's book "Complete Guide To United States Military Combat Shotguns" [ame]https://www.amazon.com/Canfields-Complete-United-Military-Shotguns/dp/1931464286[/ame] On page 109, it talks about the Raiders loving the 97 in the jungle. On page 155 is a picture of a Sailor carrying a 97 at Port Arms. He happens to be my Father-In-Law.

 

[Greyman50]

From being a student of US military history for over 60 years there are quite many Original WWII pics of Marines with shotguns. Some of them can not determine the mfg. Having read Many books written by Marines regarding combat and there are many mentions of shotgun usage. If my books were not boxed up would try and dig out a few. Moving sux.

 

[Muley Gil]

Cannot add much to the discussion of the military use of the M97. I did luck onto one that came from an estate the LGS I was working p/t at had come in.
It is an original 12 ga. 'Police Model' with a 20" cyl. barrel, and in surprisingly good condition, like perhaps it spent much of it's life in a armory rack or similar. S/N shows it to be a c.mid-1930's gun.

A lot of fun to shoot and has gotten some interesting looks at a Sporting Clays facility I shoot at occasionally.
A very strange facet of this gun was found when I first got it and was trying out different defense loads in it at the range - buck, slugs, etc.

Found that if using a very consistent hold, using the front bead only, and from a bench - it would literally stack 1 oz. Foster slugs atop one another out to almost 100 yards. Completely unexpected for a shotgun rapidly approaching the 100 year mark.

Many moons ago, the officers at my PD were allowed to carry their personal shotguns. I had a cut-down 97.

During qualifications, the drill was to put five slugs in one front trouser pocket and five buckshot rounds in the other front trouser pocket. Upon command, we were to load 5 slugs and shoot them at a 50 yard silhouette. Then, load 5 buckshot rounds & fire them at a 25 yard silhouette. All from the standing position.

I loaded my 97 and shot my 50 yard target. When it became time to fire at 25 yards, I realized I had fired my 00 buckshot rounds at 50, not the slugs. I told the range officer this and he laughed.

After I fired my slugs, we checked the targets. The range officer was still laughing at me, until we found 45 buckshot holes in the 50 yard target. And this was with a cylinder bore barrel.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Great info. I have an un-circumsized 97 with a 32 in full choke barrel. made in 1917. Killed several deer with it using OOB. Mine still runs like it was new.

 

[AJ]

Cannot add much to the discussion of the military use of the M97. I did luck onto one that came from an estate the LGS I was working p/t at had come in.
It is an original 12 ga. 'Police Model' with a 20" cyl. barrel, and in surprisingly good condition, like perhaps it spent much of it's life in a armory rack or similar. S/N shows it to be a c.mid-1930's gun.

A lot of fun to shoot and has gotten some interesting looks at a Sporting Clays facility I shoot at occasionally.
A very strange facet of this gun was found when I first got it and was trying out different defense loads in it at the range - buck, slugs, etc.

Found that if using a very consistent hold, using the front bead only, and from a bench - it would literally stack 1 oz. Foster slugs atop one another out to almost 100 yards. Completely unexpected for a shotgun rapidly approaching the 100 year mark.

About a million years ago I bought a 97 Riot gun from a small gun shop in Havelock, NC. It was marked as a NC Prison gun. Shoot it a few times and then needed some money for the family and sold it. Now I wish I had kept it.

 

[S-W4EVER]

Be aware in WWI paper shotshells were issued to the troops for use in the shotguns. WWI was a notably WET war, so shotguns did NOT prove to be very useful because most would jam solid on the first shot fired if the gun was kept loaded and if it was unloaded it was found that wet paper shells can't be chambered.

My first thought too. As long as you had all-brass shotshells they would probably bee pretty effective.

 

[AJ]

Be aware in WWI paper shotshells were issued to the troops for use in the shotguns. WWI was a notably WET war, so shotguns did NOT prove to be very useful because most would jam solid on the first shot fired if the gun was kept loaded and if it was unloaded it was found that wet paper shells can't be chambered.

My first thought too. As long as you had all-brass shotshells they would probably bee pretty effective.

The brass case issue was also referenced on Page 109 of Canfield's Combat Shotguns book. The Raiders prefered them to paper cases. We had them in Viet Nam also.

 

[mmaher94087]

Please do not ever do this. I survived as did my '97. I purchased a LEE Loader at a local gun show. The box was torn and the label designating the caliber was missing. The seller said it was for a 12 ga. 2 3/4". I happily loaded a box of 25 using the supplied scoop, Red Dot Powder, 1 1/8 oz of shot and off to the trap field I went with my buddy.

We started a round of trap and, when my turn came up, I got a very horrendous slap to my cheek from the buttstock. I passed it off as it was cold, and I thought I was more sensitive due to the cold. My next shot gave me the same treatment as before. The third shot was no different, but I heard a metallic snap that was alarming. I bowed out of the competition, racked the slide and watched the 'slide stop' drop out of the receiver in two pieces. The slide stop is the part that keeps the bolt locked in battery when fired. As it turned out, I had loaded the 2 3/4" shells using a 3", 12 ga. magnum LEE Loader powder scoop with Red Dot powder. I can attest to the strength of the '97 as it digested three 12 ga. magnum loads. I replaced the broken slide stop and still shoot this '97.

 

[paul s]

Model 12's too!

 

[Curt Fesler]

I own one in 12 Ga.,standard length barrel. I found an after market barrel and cut it down to 18". I need to sell the set soon. Its very tight. I wish I had the vented top guard that came on the combat model.