Marines use of Winchester 97s in the Pacific?

[Naphtali]

I have not yet located a copy of Canfield's book. In its absence I find myself mumbling, "I should have asked my Dad." He was an Army captain in the Pacific theater.

Since more than a million 97s were made, I suspect its long-term reliability and durability with routine non-combat use and maintenance is not questioned. Had its production cost with selling price remained profitable, it may not have been replaced in military inventory during the Vietnam War, not because it was superior to subsequent designs but because it was in inventory and [up to a point] maintenance is less expensive than replacement.

Unfortunately, people who have first- or second-hand knowledge to my question are nearly gone. I guess the best I should look forward to appears to be reference material — books, manuscripts, and audio recordings.

 

[Camster]

I read lots of history. I've read about the Marines use of the M97 and other shotguns during the Pacific War and how effective they were. However, I've not read anything as to their durability or reliability after repeated campaigns. I would imagine that at some point, the shotguns must have seen a depot where they were refurbished.

A little sidetrack if I may. For the later campaigns of the Pacific, specifically Saipan and Okinawa, were the Marines still using '03s, or had they all upgraded to carbines and Garands. I ask because I once knew a Saipan veteran (he didn't want to talk about his time there) and a friend's father, who I never met, was most likely at Sugar Loaf, based on my research of his unit, during the Okinawa campaign of 1945.

 

[rockquarry]

I have not yet located a copy of Canfield's book. In its absence I find myself mumbling, "I should have asked my Dad." He was an Army captain in the Pacific theater.

Since more than a million 97s were made, I suspect its long-term reliability and durability with routine non-combat use and maintenance is not questioned. Had its production cost with selling price remained profitable, it may not have been replaced in military inventory during the Vietnam War, not because it was superior to subsequent designs but because it was in inventory and [up to a point] maintenance is less expensive than replacement.

Unfortunately, people who have first- or second-hand knowledge to my question are nearly gone. I guess the best I should look forward to appears to be reference material — books, manuscripts, and audio recordings.

In addition to "US Infantry Weapons of WWII", Canfield also did "U.S. Combat Shotguns" and "Complete Guide to Military Shotguns". I've seen neither of these books but wouldn't hesitiate to buy them if I had an interest in such material. That decision is based solely on the quality of work I've seen in a couple of other Canfield books I purchased some years ago. I'd check Amazon among other sources. May not be cheap, but they will have good information, probably better than you'll find anywhere else.

 

[RM Vivas]

Around 1911 IIRC a Winchester employee went to a rack of 97's and grabbed one for the ammunition testing room. In the 1940's the firing pin return spring appeared to be getting weak, so they replaced it. It was then that they calculated that it had fired one and a quarter million rounds of ammo. The gun was a full choke model, so they did a pattern test and after all those rounds the pattern was still tighter than full. They called the gun "Old Reliable" and had quite an advertising campaign with it as the center of attention.

There's actually a Winchester advertisement that touts this.

 

[Harmonica]

I knew a man who served in the Marines in the Pacific from the beginning of WWII. He handled a lot of different weapons including the M-97.
He was not a big fan of the M-97, but said the ability to hold the trigger back and slam-fire it was a big advantage. He said they used brass cased ammo.

He also said they were told to never get taken prisoner with buckshot ammo because they would be executed with a sword as a war criminal.

a ''lot'' were executed just for being the enemy
...a lot more died in Japanese POW camps then did in German camps, per capita, etc

 

[Harmonica]

One of my dad's best friends at the VFW Hall was a member of the Chosin Few. He said "I spent 17 days at Frozen Chosin. And I have spent the rest of my life trying to thaw out!"

...we had a finished back porch but it had no heat/ac/etc...it was like a sauna in the summer!! but my dad would sleep there....I would sleep there, but only in the winter

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Leaving the legends of WW2 out, or any other war, I, too, used an 18" M97 in cowboy action shooting. It was easy to use, fast to fire, and since I never, as in NOT EVER, attempted to break it down I have no comments about its complexity. I still have it, actually, and if I want to use it again I'll just clean it without taking it apart. Great shotgun!

 

[eb07]

Read shots fired in anger by lt col John George. He goes over this in detail. Cliff notes. A lot of guys loved them for jungle warfare.

 

[Harmonica]

..for my first enlistment, I was at Marine Barracks Hawaii...for REACT Drills [- that's when the siren went off and the on duty section had to respond to a post that was in trouble -] the squad leader got a shotgun..I think it was a Remington 870,...I got out 33 years ago this summer-so my memory isn't that good for some things

 

[jbtrucker]

the "97" stands for how many ways there are for it to break.. I would not want to bet my life on one in a humid environment. My understanding is the 97 was not a frontline issued weapon, and the more modern Winchester model 12, Stevens 520-30, etc. were used..

Thats my dad with the Stevens he was in maintenance and transportation. The picture has Japan written on the back he went there after Europe and Japans surrender . He may have carried a shotgun while M&P Korea and California

 

[DWalt]

I think the USAF is still using the M870 modular system which was adopted about 15 years ago. Before that (and maybe still in service) was the Mossberg 590. I fired 590s extensively, and really liked them. We even had some Winchester 1200s come through, but I only saw a few of those. I also greatly admired the 1200. Simple, pumped very smoothly and lightweight. No idea what the earlier shotguns used by the AF were. Maybe Model 12s?

 

[azshot]

I also used an old 1897 Winchester in Cowboy Action in the 1990s. I got it at a gun shop for $150, it was almost a grey gun, no blue except in a few spots. But from handling, not abuse, no pits anywhere, good wood. It's a Full choke 30something barrel and has never failed. About 8 years ago my daughter wanted to start shooting trap with her boyfriend. So I got it out, lubed it, and started shooting skeet with it. I do pretty good too, for not being a wing shooter. This 110 year old 1897 has shot a million shells if it's shot 10. One thing I've never heard is a complaint about an 1897s reliability.

 

[30-30remchester]

I acquired a Steven 520-30 WW 2 trench gun without the handguard. I tried for years to find an original handguard with no luck. Several years ago, I ran into another collector and behold he had an original handguard. He was not looking to sell it as he was looking for a gun. After some back and forth we agreed that one of us was going to leave the show with a completed trench gun. A coin toss would be the deciding vote. I have ZERO luck. I should have known better.

 

[Venom6]

FWIW, Swearingen's "World's Fighting Shotguns" does not speak to your question re: reliability and durability in that environment, though he devotes several pages to the US military's acquisition, distribution, use, and general review of the '97. I have one cut to 20", bought at a local shop years ago, which featured a unique silver finish on all metal parts. The boys discussed and argued as to whether it was Metal-life, satin chrome, nickel, Cera-kote, or something else. Turns out it was something else. Silver paint.

 

[majick47]

I'v seen a number of photos of shotguns being used in combat in Central and South American jungles with similar terrain to the Pacific islands in WW2. I'll venture to say a shotgun would be very effective at close range encounters in the jungle.

 

[DWalt]

Shotguns were also highly praised in the Philippine insurrection during the early 20th century. Much more effective against the Moros than revolvers chambered in .38 Long Colt. I believe the Army used Model 97s and 00B loads at that time.

 

[Gene L]

My platoon in VN had a Model 97 carried by a Sgt. Jerry Walkup. He loved that weapon. I don't know how it survived so long in the Army's inventory, but there it is.

 

[sceva]

My platoon in VN had a Model 97 carried by a Sgt. Jerry Walkup. He loved that weapon. I don't know how it survived so long in the Army's inventory, but there it is.

Model 97's were made until 1957, quite a long run. I don't know when the Gov't purchased them but suspect more than a few were bought in the mid 1940's. Quite a bit of WWII / Korean vintage material was used in Viet Nam.

Mine ( my Grandfathers ) was made in 1954; he bought it used in 1956 with a Simmons vent rib (aftermarket)

 

[Adam Baker]

We still took them out on patrol in 1986. Marine Barracks C Company San Miguel, Republic of Philppines. They handed me one through the armory portal and I thought what an archaic ***.

 

[alwslate]

I have four 97s, two in 16 gauge and two in 12 gauge just because I like them. The fact that they were once very popular for trap shooting makes me think they must be pretty durable. I remember seeing a picture of a soldier in Viet Nam carrying what looked like an old Stevens model 520. so probably other WW2 guns were used in Nam as well. After I bought my first one I did a bit of research and was surprised to find the 97 was made until 1957.