Ukraine Gets $54.2 Billion - From the EU

[Beemerguy53]

Quite right UncleEd. They stand and resist knowing WE have their back.

And the second we are seen as NOT having the backs of our allies...when the world's thugs and hoodlums think the USA lacks the will to resist their designs on their neighbors...God help us all.

The biggest deterrent to war in Europe and the Far East is America's resolve to defend her allies. Remove that, and all bets are off...

 

[Yaworski]

A big reason we got here isn't expenditures, but rather massive tax cuts to the really rich and corporations.

Do you even know what a "corporation" is?

In 2020, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.2 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 22.2 percent of total AGI and paid 42.3 percent of all federal income taxes.

In all, the top 1 percent of taxpayers accounted for more income taxes paid than the bottom 90 percent combined. The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid $723 billion in income taxes while the bottom 90 percent paid $450 billion.

It's aways expenditures. Spending more than your income creates debt.

 

[swsig]

It's very disappointing to me that so many Americans today have forgotten the lessons of the 1938 Munich Agreement...


Slava Ukraini!
_____________

Right on. As philosopher George Santayana once wrote, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Throwing Czechoslovakia under the bus in 1938 did not dissuade Hitler from starting World War 2. The new Hitler, Vladimir Putin, has said he would like to reunite all the Slavic nations under the Russian banner. This includes Poland, a NATO member. If he succeeds in overrunning Ukraine because we "threw it under the bus", U.S. and NATO troops could be fighting Russians in Poland. At that point, the problems at our southern border that are so important to those who don't want to support the Ukrainians, will pale into insignificance as we teeter on the brink of a nuclear World War 3.

 

[cmj8591]

Well...I think it's pretty clear, at least to me, that the "end game" in Ukraine is to drive Putin's army out, and restore the Ukrainian borders to what they were, either before this current invasion, or before the annexation of Crimea in 2014. I haven't heard any government official say otherwise...have you? We are simply assisting an allied nation as they defend against an invasion.

Your innuendo notwithstanding, we do know where our tax dollars are being spent. A quick Google search will answer your questions...see the links below.

One man's "dumping money" is another man's "investing in defense". Look at a map of that region...how would you like to be living in Riga, Latvia (a NATO member) and wondering whether the alliance, and especially the USA, will come to your aid if you are attacked by Russia? If Ukraine loses this war because America abandoned her, what effect do you think that will have on Putin's decision-making? If we are seen as unwilling to stand up for the sovereignty of smaller nations, what do you think the Chinese, the Iranians, and the North Koreans will take away from that?

The strongest American supporters of Ukraine should be those who do not want to see our troops involved in another shooting war.

I really haven't seen anyone from the administration tell us what the plan is. Even if it is as simple as "driving Putin's army out". The only thing that we get is that if we don't give more, it is somehow unpatriotic. I don't think it's wrong to support Ukraine, I just think that there is very little transparency from the people who are screaming that we need to give more and I think that they have no real plan about how to draw the whole thing to some kind of conclusion, whatever that may be. Ukraine was corrupt before we got there and is still corrupt. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't support them when it comes to fighting the Russians, it just means that they and the present administration, who is pushing the hardest for more, should be held accountable. Right now neither of them is. Maybe I'm un American for suggesting that but the US doesn't have a great record since WW2 when it comes to backing wars.

Here's just one example.

5 Ukrainian officials arrested over theft of $40 million in war funds as Ukraine corruption persists

 

[Beemerguy53]

I really haven't seen anyone from the administration tell us what the plan is. Even if it is as simple as "driving Putin's army out". The only thing that we get is that if we don't give more, it is somehow unpatriotic. I don't think it's wrong to support Ukraine, I just think that there is very little transparency from the people who are screaming that we need to give more and I think that they have no real plan about how to draw the whole thing to some kind of conclusion, whatever that may be. Ukraine was corrupt before we got there and is still corrupt. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't support them when it comes to fighting the Russians, it just means that they and the present administration, who is pushing the hardest for more, should be held accountable. Right now neither of them is. Maybe I'm un American for suggesting that but the US doesn't have a great record since WW2 when it comes to backing wars.

Here's just one example.

5 Ukrainian officials arrested over theft of $40 million in war funds as Ukraine corruption persists

Hmmm..I've been following this war closely since it started, and I haven't heard anyone in our government "screaming" that we need to help Ukraine, nor have I heard anyone in our government claim that those who want to abandon Ukraine are somehow unpatriotic. Who's been doing this "screaming" and who has questioned others' patriotism? Names, please?

The news source you quote has a huge credibility problem...they settled a major civil suit over that just a few months ago. For purposes of this discussion, I'll assume their story about Ukraine corruption is accurate. A glass can be either half-full or half-empty. It occurs to me that the arrest of people in connection with alleged corruption is a good thing, and indicates that the government there is serious about combating it. Perhaps those arrests can deter others.

Our country's position on Ukraine is no mystery; it's readily accessible with a few taps on your keyboard and click of your mouse. I found the links below in seconds. Lots of information, right down to the kinds and quantities of weapons and equipment we are supplying to them...I'm not sure how much more "transparent" than that the government could be.

FACT SHEET: One Year of Supporting Ukraine | The White House

U.S. Security Cooperation with Ukraine - United States Department of State.

 

[ladder13]

Reminds me of the Covid threads.

 

[biku324]

All of the former Soviet states that have escaped Russian dominance are combating 7 decades of entrenched corruption that was a cynical byproduct of authoritarianism. A few, like Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia, actively combat that corruption. It takes determination and time to change lingering pernicious effects of soulless totalitarianism.

 

[Beemerguy53]

All of the former Soviet states that have escaped Russian dominance are combating 7 decades of entrenched corruption that was a cynical byproduct of authoritarianism. A few, like Ukraine, Georgia, and Armenia, actively combat that corruption. It takes determination and time to change lingering pernicious effects of soulless totalitarianism.

You make an excellent point. In a lot of places around the world, there is a certain "acceptable" level of corruption in governments...people hiring relatives, steering business toward friends, etc. Just in the past couple of weeks, we've actually had prominent news stories about this sort of thing here in the USA.

I recall that not long after President Zelensky took office, he was pressured to participate in a quid pro quo deal, and he refused, even at the risk of losing much-needed military assistance. He's a good man, and it appears he's trying to clean things up there.

 

[Narragansett]

It's very disappointing to me that so many Americans today have forgotten the lessons of the 1938 Munich Agreement, and at the same time abandoned President John F. Kennedy's pledge, delivered in his 1961 inaugural address:

"Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

Slava Ukraini!
_____________

You are assuming that the new Americans of today ever heard of Kennedy's speech, and 90% or them have no idea where Munich is.

I for one am tired of war and want no part in any more unless it is a National emergency like WW2. Keep your Vietnams, Afghanistans, Korea and whatever else is out there. And by the way, we are still at war with North Korea. A 71 YO truce. How is that working out for us? Every president since 1953 has had a hand in screwing up that hot mess.

No political comments please. Be cool

 

[cmj8591]

Hmmm..I've been following this war closely since it started, and I haven't heard anyone in our government "screaming" that we need to help Ukraine, nor have I heard anyone in our government claim that those who want to abandon Ukraine are somehow unpatriotic. Who's been doing this "screaming" and who has questioned others' patriotism? Names, please?

The news source you quote has a huge credibility problem...they settled a major civil suit over that just a few months ago. For purposes of this discussion, I'll assume their story about Ukraine corruption is accurate. A glass can be either half-full or half-empty. It occurs to me that the arrest of people in connection with alleged corruption is a good thing, and indicates that the government there is serious about combating it. Perhaps those arrests can deter others.

Our country's position on Ukraine is no mystery; it's readily accessible with a few taps on your keyboard and click of your mouse. I found the links below in seconds. Lots of information, right down to the kinds and quantities of weapons and equipment we are supplying to them...I'm not sure how much more "transparent" than that the government could be.

FACT SHEET: One Year of Supporting Ukraine | The White House

U.S. Security Cooperation with Ukraine - United States Department of State.

That article was one of about a dozen from different sources. There are more and more instances. Of course those are the ones that get reported. Just take Barisma as an example of how muddy the water is over there. As far as names, start in the corner office and go left. I really don't care about Ukraine's ethical problems, and they do have some weather or not you want to see them. What I do care about is who's watching the store and the fact that the people calling the shots don't seem to have any real plan other than throw more money at it.

 

[Beemerguy53]

You are assuming that the new Americans of today ever heard of Kennedy's speech, and 90% or them have no idea where Munich is.

I for one am tired of war and want no part in any more unless it is a National emergency like WW2. Keep your Vietnams, Afghanistans, Korea and whatever else is out there. And by the way, we are still at war with North Korea. A 71 YO truce. How is that working out for us? Every president since 1953 has had a hand in screwing up that hot mess.

No political comments please. Be cool

I truly wish the USA could be less involved around the world...but when you carve out a position as the globe's premier superpower, that comes with an acceptance of responsibility, so here we are.

World War II was a tough lesson for everyone in the consequences of appeasing a dangerous dictator, and as much as don't want my country in a shooting war, we have to maintain a strong defense and support our allies, especially in a case of unprovoked invasion.

The late US Senator Phil Gramm said it best: "It the day ever comes on this Earth when the lion will lie down with the lamb, I want the United States to be the lion in that scenario."

 

[ggibson511960]

I don't understand the insistence of some congressmen for full accountability for wartime assistance. Since when does the fog of war not conceal waste, fraud and inefficiency? If we expect perfect accounting from Ukraine we should immediately suspend payments to Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the American Rescue Plan, the Inflation Reduction Act and a host of other programs in our pristine western civilization democracy that leak money like a sieve to crony capitalism and simple corruption. The most successful war the U.S. ever fought was WW II, and the examples of waste and inefficiency are too numerous to catalog. There is a strong case to be made for throwing money at a problem when it's an out and out emergency. I wish the feds would throw some money at border security, and while they're at it protection from telemarketers. They can't seem to help with anything.

 

[twodog max]

Keeping mouth shut.

 

[quikdraw67]

I'll have a Coke.

 

[biku324]

What we've gotten for our money so far would be:

1. NATO energized and expanded even to include chronically neutral Sweden.

2. The Russian military is degraded to the point that it will need a decade just to re-equip, let alone regroup/reorganize.

3. Europe now is no longer utterly dependent on Russian natural gas.

4. Finland is now a NATO member, adding 800 miles to Russia's common border - Finns say there are lots of Russians in Finland; most are in the ground.

5. Russian cash reserves deliberately built through decades for sustaining them through war are becoming depleted.

6. Most east European NATO members have donated Russian equipment to Ukraine and are mostly re-arming with Western weaponry that ensures interoperability.

7. A new, enormous market for US LNG and weaponry.

Other than that, not much.

 

[cmj8591]

I don't understand the insistence of some congressmen for full accountability for wartime assistance.

Our congressmen should be held accountable for EVERY dollar they take from us, weather it gets wasted or not. Part of the problem with American politics these days is that our representatives are not being held responsible.

 

[OFT II]

I'm in favor of helping Ukraine in any way possible but only after securing our country from the southern invasion.

 

[Yaworski]

If we expect perfect accounting from Ukraine .

If I give you money to pay your rent, I have a right to expect that you'll pay your rent.

 

[Greyman50]

FWIW, Vietnam and the "Stan" were ruined by pure corrupt POLITICAL BS. Allow Real Generals run wars.

 

[biku324]

If I give you money to pay your rent, I have a right to expect that you'll pay your rent.

Not a chance. If you give something, it's a gift - your expectations are meaningless. If you paying for a service with an understanding that service will be provided, then you have a reasonable expectation of what will be provided.