American 44 “Rimfire”

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Although there wasn't any SAAMI to set the standards for a par-
ticular caliber/cartridge but they did try to make cartridges that
fit. Plus, I think we have to put things in their proper perspective.

At the end of the Civil War, cartridge making was in its early stages
and center fire cartridges were just coming out. Rim Fire cartridges
were proven effective in The War and were the major type of car-
tridge in use in the late 1860's. I don't know how many different
44 caliber firearms were available in 1869 and 1870 but there
must have been many.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[BMur]

Cartridges

I went through my antique cartridge collection and found a UMC 44 RIMFIRE PISTOL round. Notice the comparison with an American centerfire. Also next to a Henry round.

Notice also that the 44 American centerfire and UMC 44 RIMFIRE fit perfectly and the larger diameter Henry's do not.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Conversion

I found a photo of what I've seen several times to convert an original 44 Rimfire Short "Pistol" chamber to also shoot the 44 American centerfire round. This conversion would not work with any other round but the American 44cf. This conversion has been seen and documented in published books.

Also, this conversion would not work if the chambers were originally machined to shoot the Henry Flat rifle round since the 44 American mimics the 44 Rimfire Pistol round in case dynamics.
A Henry chamber would cause the 44 American centerfire to bulge and split with discharge which would not be safe to shoot.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Henry Flat

I finally found a connection between the Henry Flat and the 44 RF PISTOL. See photo.

I looked up the case specs for the US CARTRIDGE CO HENRY FLAT and it's obviously a dual purpose cartridge having a .442 case diameter would be a tight fit in the pistol and a loose fit in the rifle but it would work!

The S&W 44 RF pistol chamber is the same as the Colt.

Murph

 

[BMur]

US Cartridge Co

It looks like US Cartridge Co was definitely the early connection between the 44 RF Henry rifle and the 44 RF Pistol. Even though this early ad only labels Colts revolvers it definitely includes various Smith and Wesson 44 rf pistols. The adapted case would definitely chamber in the American revolver.

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

I don't know if this fits this discussion, but "The Turks had bought several thousand Henry rifles for their continual war with Russia, and for logistical reasons had the No 3s in the Henry cartridge." I need to say that there is no Smith & Wesson reference to the "Henry" part of the .44 Rim Fire cartridge. Every reference only says ".44 RF".

 

[BMur]

Adapted cartridge

Thanks Mike,
I think US Cartridge Co made the decision to manufacture a cartridge that would function in both the Henry rifle and the 44RF pistol.
I have no clue why the gun manufacturing industry didn't match up the cartridges and guns to begin with.

This is a duplicate situation regarding the Colt SAA and the Schofield that forced the US Army to manufacture a dual purpose 45 cartridge that would function in both guns.

They really had some serious problems communicating back then.

However, the research does confirm at least one cartridge manufacturer did produce a Henry cartridge that would chamber in the pistol and that's good enough for me.

I know this opens up a can of worms regarding lots more questions than answers but at least one is clearly answered.

So referencing the Henry cartridge to the pistol is correct just limited to US Cartridge Co being the manufacturer of the round.

I don't know where the Turks got their ammo from. Perhaps US Cartridge Co? Or some other European source that manufactured a dual purpose cartridge that would function in both guns.

One thing is also certain. The rifle and pistol did NOT match in chamber specs.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Winchester connection

I found absolute proof positive the 44 Henry Rifle, 66 Yellowboy, and Colt 44 Rimfire pistol were the first Frontier Rifle/Pistol combination introduced in 1875!!!
Directly from the 1875 Winchester catalog! Winchester also manufactured a dual purpose cartridge for the Henry/ Colt combo the exact year the 44 Rimfire pistol was introduced!
NO QUESTION! It's fact.

*** This would include all Smith & Wesson 44 RF pistols. During that period You would just have to make sure you are purchasing the correct box of ammo.

Murph

 

[VincentW]

I'm researching the American 44 Rimfire caliber. I have extensive notes on the Colt 44 Rimfire SAA and didn't realize that they are basically a mirror image of each other when it comes to where they were shipped and when they were manufactured. They are pretty rare and most were sent to Mexico City and the Southern states. However, some also were sent to Major Distributors in the East.

Is there any interest in this caliber on the forum?


Murph

My uncle has this piece. Thought it was worth $200 to $300 until I noted the 44 caliber rim fire design. Some of the screws have been roughed up. It is very clean, and other than one spring that allows the to lock in, it is in great shape.
S&W 1-1/2 2nd 44caliber rim fire, 1880 army edition.

 

[iby]

2nd model 38 single action
Sorry

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Welcome to the Forum!

I guess I am getting too old but I don't understand the purpose
of your post. If you are trying to determine the size of the original
ammunition? These are made to use the .38 S&W cartridge and
this round is still being manufactured (at least, for now).

If you want some ammo, you can buy some. If you want them
with black powder charges, you can buy some from a custom
reloader or you could make your own. All the components are
available.

The dimensions for the .38 S&W cartridge are listed in the SAAMI
spec.s and anyone can look them up. Plus, any good reloading
manual should have data on this round.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[iby]

Model 2...

 

[VincentW]

I am trying to determine if this is a .38 or a .44. I'll dig deeper. Sorry for the confusion on showing the size of the cylinder holes by using other rounds.

Thanks again "iby" for the fast response. What is the diameter of this round? .44 flat w&c or the henry .44 pointed.

Next question should I repair this old S&W model 2 or leave it as is? If I repair it, it will function, but might lose value?

 

[VincentW]

Exploring the Legacy of the Smith & Wesson 1-1/2 2nd Model Revolvers (.22, .38, and .44 Caliber)

The Smith & Wesson 1-1/2 2nd Model revolvers represent a pivotal evolution in American firearms history. Manufactured during the late 19th century, these compact, top-break revolvers were widely embraced by civilians and military users for their ease of use, solid construction, and innovative features. They also mark the era when Smith & Wesson was actively patenting and refining mechanisms that would define revolver technology for decades.

Patent Dates Engraved on the Barrel

The following U.S. patent dates commonly appear on these models, illustrating the progression of revolver innovation:

• January 17 & 24, 1865 – Introduced the top-break frame and automatic cartridge ejection system.
• July 11, 1865 – Covered improvements to lockwork and cylinder operation.
• August 24, 1869 – Signaled major frame and durability upgrades, closely tied to the larger Model 3.
• July 25, 1871 – Likely a refinement or reissue of previous designs to enhance production and strength.
• May 11, 1880 – Corresponds to advances in extraction systems and structural reinforcement for use with stronger cartridges.

Model Overview & Calibers

The 1-1/2 2nd Model was part of S&W's small-frame revolver line and was chambered in several rimfire calibers:

• .22 Short Rimfire – Popular for target shooting and discreet personal carry.
• .38 Rimfire – Offered more stopping power while retaining a compact form.
• .44 S&W Flat Rimfire (aka .44 S&C) – Found in related large-frame models like the Model 3, used in military service and frontier settings.

Rimfire Cartridge Dimensions (Historical)

.22 Short Rimfire

• Bullet diameter: ~0.222 in (5.64 mm)
• Case diameter: ~0.226 in (5.74 mm)
• Rim diameter: ~0.275 in (6.99 mm)
• Case length: 0.43 in (10.9 mm)
• Overall length: 0.69 in (17.5 mm)

.38 Short Rimfire

• Bullet diameter: ~0.375 in (9.53 mm)
• Case diameter: ~0.380 in (9.65 mm)
• Rim diameter: ~0.435 in (11.05 mm)
• Case length: ~0.88 in (22.4 mm)
• Overall length: ~1.26 in (32.0 mm)

.44 S&W Flat Rimfire

• Bullet diameter: ~0.446 in (11.33 mm)
• Case diameter: ~0.471 in (11.96 mm)
• Rim diameter: ~0.622 in (15.80 mm)
• Case length: 0.91 in (23.1 mm)
• Overall length: ~1.37 in (34.8 mm)

Serial Number and Markings

This particular revolver is serial-numbered 88720, which appears both:

• On the butt of the frame (grip area)
• On the underside of the barrel catch – a key feature of the safety hammerless top-break design

The presence of matching serial numbers on both parts is a strong indicator of factory-original configuration, increasing both the collectibility and historical authenticity of the piece.

Why This Revolver Matters

The S&W 1-1/2 2nd Model is a landmark firearm for several reasons:

• Early adopter of metallic cartridge firing
• Breakthrough top-break design with automatic ejection
• Rimfire calibers spanning civilian to military usage
• Strong patent lineage showcasing 15+ years of mechanical refinement
• Matching serial numbers reinforce originality and collector value

This model reflects the transitional period between percussion cap pistols and modern revolvers. It was durable, innovative, and practical — a favorite among 19th-century shooters.

Collector's Tip

To research this specific revolver further, use the serial number in conjunction with patent dates and frame style to pinpoint its production range. Resources like the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, the USPTO Patent Archive, and historical firearm forums can offer deeper insight.

1. If You're Focused on Historical Authenticity / Collectibility ("As Found")

Leave the screws as-is, even if they're slightly damaged, mismatched, or buggered — here's why:

• Originality adds value: Collectors often prefer a gun in "as-found" condition, with all its original parts, even if they're imperfect.
• Patina & age tell a story: Wear and damage are part of the revolver's history. Replacing parts — especially visible ones like screws — can diminish the authenticity and period-correct appearance.
• Matching metal finish: Original screws often have a different heat treatment and aging compared to modern replacements. New screws may stand out visually, especially if blued or polished differently.

Recommended if:

• You're keeping the revolver as a collector's piece.
• It's not mechanically compromised or unsafe to handle.
• You value originality and provenance.

2. If You're Aiming for Mechanical Function / Display-Ready Restoration

Replacing damaged screws is reasonable if they are severely stripped, missing, or interfere with safe operation or disassembly:

• Jack First Inc. is a trusted supplier of high-quality reproduction parts. Their screws are often very close to original specs, but may need minor fitting.
• You could age or antique the new screws to better match the revolver's finish (e.g., with cold blue or rust browning).
• Keep the originals in a labeled bag if you ever want to restore the gun to "as-found" condition.

Shop the latest Replacement Smith & Wesson Top-break .32 revolver Parts - Online Store

Shop the latest Vintage Replacement Smith & Wesson Top-break .32 revolver Parts

jackfirstinc.com

Recommended if:

• The screw heads are stripped to the point of being unusable.
• You're planning a sympathetic restoration for display or occasional function.
• The revolver is incomplete and you're aiming for visual or mechanical completeness.

Balanced Approach (Best of Both Worlds)

If the screws are not structurally critical, consider:

• Leaving them in place for now and sourcing correct replacements just in case.
• Photographing and cataloging the original condition before any restoration steps.
• If you replace them, store the originals with the gun.

This gives you flexibility — you can always undo a reversible change like replacing screws.


If you do replace screws, try to:

• Use correct head styles and thread types for the period.
• Avoid over-torquing or forcing modern screws into old threads — this can damage the frame or grip screw holes.
• If unsure, consult a vintage S&W gunsmith or restorer.

It is an interesting piece, and has significant historical value. Above are a summary of my findings to date. I will ensure it has all of the parts and pieces, a balanced approach.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

If you are interested in the history, that is fine. Go write a book.
But first off, you will have to stop conflating the facts. There is NO
Such Thing as:

"Smith & Wesson 1-1/2 2nd Model Revolvers (.22, .38, and .44 Caliber)."

The first revolver S&W made was called the Number One. S&W designed
the cartridge it used which would later be known as the .22 short. It was
the only caliber offered for this model.

The Model 1-1/2 was made in three unique issues. The first and second
issues were available in .32 RF Only (not counting modifications made
outside the Factory). These were designed as tip-ups. Later, the .32 S&W
CF SA came out. Some call it the 1-1/2 CF but this isn't a Factory desig-
nation.

The Model 2 came out in 1861 and was a big seller during the Civil War.
Some collectors refer to it as the Model 2 Old Army (even though it was
never adopted as a sanctioned Army pistol). None the less, these were
very popular with the soldiers. This model was in .32 RF only. In the
late 1870's, this model was replaced with the .38 S&W SA.

The revolver you have is the .38 S&W SA 2nd Model. Some refer to it as
a Model 2 CF. These came out in the late 1870's and proved to be more
successful than the Old Army model. These were only made in .38 S&W.

The only revolvers S&W made in .44 caliber were the S&W Model Number
Three (that is, until the .44 Hand Ejector series came out in the early 20th
Century). There are many sub-models made in the Number 3 model series
(like the American 1st and 2nd models, Russian 1st, 2nd and 3rd models
and the .45 Schofields).

So, get the facts straight before proselytizing to the quire.

Cheers!
Webb

Edit: Yes, I used the wrong word. Sorry. Maybe I should have said
"... proselytizing to the quagmire."

 

[iby]

Choir

 

[BMur]

In addition to Webbs post. We are all still learning and studying the BLACK POWDER ERA.
You can't just post cartridge case specs without studying the entire industry at that time. What you will find is NO STANDARDS.
Each cartridge Company that we know of manufactured a different result for the exact same caliber. See photo.
So if you post specs from a cartridge that you have studied you must also identify the manufacturer of same or your information is basically impossible to confirm or identify the maker.

I personally have identified 12 totally different variations of the 38 short Rimfire cartridge alone.

There are more out there yet to be identified for literally every black powder caliber cartridge manufactured during that era of both centerfire and Rimfire.
So the study actually never ends.

Take a really good look at those numbers and realize how much variation there was back then for the exact same caliber. Then add 6 more from my studies.

Murph

 

[VincentW]

Hi There,

If you are interested in the history, that is fine. Go write a book.
But first off, you will have to stop conflating the facts. There is NO
Such Thing as:

"Smith & Wesson 1-1/2 2nd Model Revolvers (.22, .38, and .44 Caliber)."

The first revolver S&W made was called the Number One. S&W designed
the cartridge it used which would later be known as the .22 short. It was
the only caliber offered for this model.

The Model 1-1/2 was made in three unique issues. The first and second
issues were available in .32 RF Only (not counting modifications made
outside the Factory). These were designed as tip-ups. Later, the .32 S&W
CF SA came out. Some call it the 1-1/2 CF but this isn't a Factory desig-
nation.

The Model 2 came out in 1861 and was a big seller during the Civil War.
Some collectors refer to it as the Model 2 Old Army (even though it was
never adopted as a sanctioned Army pistol). None the less, these were
very popular with the soldiers. This model was in .32 RF only. In the
late 1870's, this model was replaced with the .38 S&W SA.

The revolver you have is the .38 S&W SA 2nd Model. Some refer to it as
a Model 2 CF. These came out in the late 1870's and proved to be more
successful than the Old Army model. These were only made in .38 S&W.

The only revolvers S&W made in .44 caliber were the S&W Model Number
Three (that is, until the .44 Hand Ejector series came out in the early 20th
Century). There are many sub-models made in the Number 3 model series
(like the American 1st and 2nd models, Russian 1st, 2nd and 3rd models
and the .45 Schofields).

So, get the facts straight before proselytizing to the quire.

Cheers!
Webb

Edit: Yes, I used the wrong word. Sorry. Maybe I should have said
"... proselytizing to the quagmire.

Hi There,

If you are interested in the history, that is fine. Go write a book.
But first off, you will have to stop conflating the facts. There is NO
Such Thing as:

"Smith & Wesson 1-1/2 2nd Model Revolvers (.22, .38, and .44 Caliber)."

The first revolver S&W made was called the Number One. S&W designed
the cartridge it used which would later be known as the .22 short. It was
the only caliber offered for this model.

The Model 1-1/2 was made in three unique issues. The first and second
issues were available in .32 RF Only (not counting modifications made
outside the Factory). These were designed as tip-ups. Later, the .32 S&W
CF SA came out. Some call it the 1-1/2 CF but this isn't a Factory desig-
nation.

The Model 2 came out in 1861 and was a big seller during the Civil War.
Some collectors refer to it as the Model 2 Old Army (even though it was
never adopted as a sanctioned Army pistol). None the less, these were
very popular with the soldiers. This model was in .32 RF only. In the
late 1870's, this model was replaced with the .38 S&W SA.

The revolver you have is the .38 S&W SA 2nd Model. Some refer to it as
a Model 2 CF. These came out in the late 1870's and proved to be more
successful than the Old Army model. These were only made in .38 S&W.

The only revolvers S&W made in .44 caliber were the S&W Model Number
Three (that is, until the .44 Hand Ejector series came out in the early 20th
Century). There are many sub-models made in the Number 3 model series
(like the American 1st and 2nd models, Russian 1st, 2nd and 3rd models
and the .45 Schofields).

So, get the facts straight before proselytizing to the quire.

Cheers!
Webb

Edit: Yes, I used the wrong word. Sorry. Maybe I should have said
"... proselytizing to the quagmire."

I really enjoyed that! You captured the tone perfectly—almost like one of the seasoned gunnys we had with our battalions. Fantastic work, and I truly appreciate it. Thanks again!

 

[VincentW]

S&W Model 1 Through 1 1/2 and Variations With Pictures of Each

Vintage And Antique Guns, Ammo, Knives And Other Collectable Outdoor And Historical Items.

www.ammoandguncollector.com

 

[Hondo44]

Murph and Webb,
A very informative thread, something I've always wondered about but not having the guns to verify. Thank you!

And it brings up a possible related cartridge I've only read about:
Winchester .42 Stetson. If I remember correctly it's actually a .44 caliber but measured at the top of the rifling, the rifling groove diameter being .44 caliber. Does that ring any bells?