RM Vivas
US Veteran
This is going to be long and image heavy………..
While perusing the online arms auctions one night I saw an M&P that caught my eye.
The auction was labelled: Smith & Wesson Pre Model 10 Hand Ejector 5 Screw 38 Spl 4” Barrel
The title hit all the right words but also covered a hell of a lot of ground.
I decided to give it a quick look and the first image that showed the gun made me sit up.
First glance said pre-war M&P just like almost a million of them. Four inch square butt blue; that puts it in the realm of a possible NYPD gun. I have a pre-war NYPD M&P but if I could find another I’d take it if the price was right.
The front sight looked to have been hacked down but I’d seen guys file them to that profile…..
Hang on……
Was there a pin holding a sight blade into the front sight?
Hmmmm…..
Then I looked at the frame by the rear sight notch looks and thought “that looks a little funny too…… this bears some investigation (by now I have a faint inkling of what this is)….”
Here are the images the seller posted (I’m not posting all of them, just the relevant ones):
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
I suspected that this gun was one of the seldom seen and poorly documented non-catalog variations of the M&P, the New York Police Target Model revolver.
I had seen relatively little on these guns but one characteristic that aids in their identification is that they have a grooved front strap and backstrap as well as a grooved trigger.
I checked the images closely but didn’t see any grooves. My thinking was that perhaps this was an early model, a sub-variation or a prototype. Either way, the starting bid price was pretty reasonable, so I bid the gun. While the auction ran, I started doing some digging.
I figured that -if- it was a New York Police Target Model (NYPTM), it probably went to one of the guys in Iron Alley or one of their brethren: Sile, Lava, Jovino, Greenblatt, etc.
I asked around and learned that the gun was a shipment to Jovino on 20MAY31. That made me even more sure that this gun was something special and motivated me to match the bids as they increased slowly.
I won the auction and when the financial dust had settled and the finances, taxes, shipping, etc. had been sorted out, the gun set me back about $450.
When the gun showed up, I gave it a quick once over, shot some quick and dirty ‘proof of life’ photos and started writing this post.
I’m a little bit excited as I am pretty sure this is a NYPTM.
Here are the photos I shot; lets tick off the features….
Grooved frontstrap…check! (with a drilled hole for a grip adapter I'm guessing)
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Grooved backstrap…check!
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Grooved trigger…check!
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
OK, it’s hitting all the marks (and I’ll discuss how I know what those marks are in a bit). Lets see what else makes this special.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Front sight has a pinned in serrated blade. This is definitely not homeworkshop/shadetree gunsmithing unless the guy was -dang- good. I have to get a better shot of the front sight notch as well as measurements of the sight width; specs for the NYPTM are 1/8” front sight (how I know this will be revealed shortly).
Now lets have a look at the rear sight………
That is –not—Tony the Gun Plumbers’ handiwork (or as Cmdr Zero would say, “…Not the work of drunken gunplumbing monkeys at Century Arms...”). Not only has the rear notch been nicely squared out, note the non-reflective metalwork.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Also came with an Audley holster which was typical for the City cop of that era, particularly if he was assigned to Mounted or Motorcycle, both of whom required lanyard swivels on revolvers.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
This revolver was fitted for a lanyard loop (now removed) after it left the factory. How do I know it was done after it left the factory? Well, you’re not seeing a picture of where it was drilled, so you figure it out. Factory would have been more… careful.
Someone thoughtfully stamped the serial number on the frame a second time.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
So how do I recognize an NYPTM revolver?
Back in the mid 1990’s when Connecticut Valley Historical Museum was getting in tons of S&W documents, they let me have a peek at some of them. I saw some documents about a gun called the New York Police Target Model and figured I should make copies of those for myself. I did, and they have sat in a drawer for a few decades until needed.
I have maybe twenty pages on the NYPTM revolver covering 1926 or so through the mid-1930’s. The actual term New York Police Target Model doesn’t seem to have really been formalized until around 1929-1930 or so. I’d really have to go look in my notes and it’s late right now and I’m tired.
These two documents pretty much give all the description you need:
It’s interesting to note that the letter in the first image is dated 29APR31 and asks about a three-gun order for Jovino with two guns for ‘chiefs’ and then my gun shipped three weeks later. If my gun was part of a three gun shipment………strong circumstantial!
Anyway, it’s getting late and I need sleep. I thought I’d share this little find.
Best,
RM Vivas
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
On or about 04AUG32, the revolver was shipped by Von Lengerke & Antione of –Chicago—back to S&W for repair.
The note reads:
“1 38 S&W M&P 4” Blue New York Police Model +3(?)2177 – 613089. Too much play in cylinder shaves lead”
S&W responded on 10AUG32 that it’d be taken care of at no charge and the gun shipped back.
I’m not sure how I should read this.
Unmistakably the gun is a New York Police Target Model and, on that basis alone, is a keeper. My hope, of course, is that one of New Yorks Bluecoats carried it, however, a repair tag out of Chicago seems to cast some question as to the ultimate end-user.
The gun letters as a shipment to Jovino on 20MAY31 and that’s not in dispute.
VL&A and Abercrombie Fitch (of NYC) had a business arrangement, and first thought is that perhaps it went back to S&W for A&F ---via--- VL&A. A roundabout route to be sure, but theoretically possible.
However, Jovino (and the rest of Iron Alley) had a T-I-G-H-T relationship with the factory. If Joe Rookie, who bought his shooting iron at Jovinos, was unhappy with it, he likely would have returned it to Jovinos.
Some possibilities:
Jovinos returned to gun to S&W for some reason and it went back into inventory and was re-sold. Possible but then the letter should show a sale to the next dealer and not Jovino (although the records are byzantine at times and nowhere near complete).
Some cop bought the gun, re-sold it and it worked it’s way West and landed around Chicago. Possible. Maybe the guy left ‘da Job and took his piece with him.
Jovino was jobbing the gun. I’ve seen lots of orders (albeit in the immediate post-war era) of guys in Iron Alley ordering 50 or 100 guns with a notation to send them to the Austin TX Police Department or some other similar distant location. Again, possible, but if there was an agency in the Chicago area looking for guns, I think they would have gone through a local dealer rather than one in NYC.
Unless I turn up something more, it’s always going to be speculation about whether this gun went to an NYPD officer or not. What is unimpeachable is that it –is—a New York Police Target Model, it –was—shipped to Jovinos and it –has—the slickest trigger pull I’ve ever felt.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Best,
RM Vivas
While perusing the online arms auctions one night I saw an M&P that caught my eye.
The auction was labelled: Smith & Wesson Pre Model 10 Hand Ejector 5 Screw 38 Spl 4” Barrel
The title hit all the right words but also covered a hell of a lot of ground.
I decided to give it a quick look and the first image that showed the gun made me sit up.
First glance said pre-war M&P just like almost a million of them. Four inch square butt blue; that puts it in the realm of a possible NYPD gun. I have a pre-war NYPD M&P but if I could find another I’d take it if the price was right.
The front sight looked to have been hacked down but I’d seen guys file them to that profile…..
Hang on……
Was there a pin holding a sight blade into the front sight?
Hmmmm…..
Then I looked at the frame by the rear sight notch looks and thought “that looks a little funny too…… this bears some investigation (by now I have a faint inkling of what this is)….”
Here are the images the seller posted (I’m not posting all of them, just the relevant ones):
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
I suspected that this gun was one of the seldom seen and poorly documented non-catalog variations of the M&P, the New York Police Target Model revolver.
I had seen relatively little on these guns but one characteristic that aids in their identification is that they have a grooved front strap and backstrap as well as a grooved trigger.
I checked the images closely but didn’t see any grooves. My thinking was that perhaps this was an early model, a sub-variation or a prototype. Either way, the starting bid price was pretty reasonable, so I bid the gun. While the auction ran, I started doing some digging.
I figured that -if- it was a New York Police Target Model (NYPTM), it probably went to one of the guys in Iron Alley or one of their brethren: Sile, Lava, Jovino, Greenblatt, etc.
I asked around and learned that the gun was a shipment to Jovino on 20MAY31. That made me even more sure that this gun was something special and motivated me to match the bids as they increased slowly.
I won the auction and when the financial dust had settled and the finances, taxes, shipping, etc. had been sorted out, the gun set me back about $450.
When the gun showed up, I gave it a quick once over, shot some quick and dirty ‘proof of life’ photos and started writing this post.
I’m a little bit excited as I am pretty sure this is a NYPTM.
Here are the photos I shot; lets tick off the features….
Grooved frontstrap…check! (with a drilled hole for a grip adapter I'm guessing)
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Grooved backstrap…check!
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Grooved trigger…check!
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
OK, it’s hitting all the marks (and I’ll discuss how I know what those marks are in a bit). Lets see what else makes this special.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Front sight has a pinned in serrated blade. This is definitely not homeworkshop/shadetree gunsmithing unless the guy was -dang- good. I have to get a better shot of the front sight notch as well as measurements of the sight width; specs for the NYPTM are 1/8” front sight (how I know this will be revealed shortly).
Now lets have a look at the rear sight………
That is –not—Tony the Gun Plumbers’ handiwork (or as Cmdr Zero would say, “…Not the work of drunken gunplumbing monkeys at Century Arms...”). Not only has the rear notch been nicely squared out, note the non-reflective metalwork.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Also came with an Audley holster which was typical for the City cop of that era, particularly if he was assigned to Mounted or Motorcycle, both of whom required lanyard swivels on revolvers.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
This revolver was fitted for a lanyard loop (now removed) after it left the factory. How do I know it was done after it left the factory? Well, you’re not seeing a picture of where it was drilled, so you figure it out. Factory would have been more… careful.
Someone thoughtfully stamped the serial number on the frame a second time.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
So how do I recognize an NYPTM revolver?
Back in the mid 1990’s when Connecticut Valley Historical Museum was getting in tons of S&W documents, they let me have a peek at some of them. I saw some documents about a gun called the New York Police Target Model and figured I should make copies of those for myself. I did, and they have sat in a drawer for a few decades until needed.
I have maybe twenty pages on the NYPTM revolver covering 1926 or so through the mid-1930’s. The actual term New York Police Target Model doesn’t seem to have really been formalized until around 1929-1930 or so. I’d really have to go look in my notes and it’s late right now and I’m tired.
These two documents pretty much give all the description you need:
It’s interesting to note that the letter in the first image is dated 29APR31 and asks about a three-gun order for Jovino with two guns for ‘chiefs’ and then my gun shipped three weeks later. If my gun was part of a three gun shipment………strong circumstantial!
Anyway, it’s getting late and I need sleep. I thought I’d share this little find.
Best,
RM Vivas
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
On or about 04AUG32, the revolver was shipped by Von Lengerke & Antione of –Chicago—back to S&W for repair.
The note reads:
“1 38 S&W M&P 4” Blue New York Police Model +3(?)2177 – 613089. Too much play in cylinder shaves lead”
S&W responded on 10AUG32 that it’d be taken care of at no charge and the gun shipped back.
I’m not sure how I should read this.
Unmistakably the gun is a New York Police Target Model and, on that basis alone, is a keeper. My hope, of course, is that one of New Yorks Bluecoats carried it, however, a repair tag out of Chicago seems to cast some question as to the ultimate end-user.
The gun letters as a shipment to Jovino on 20MAY31 and that’s not in dispute.
VL&A and Abercrombie Fitch (of NYC) had a business arrangement, and first thought is that perhaps it went back to S&W for A&F ---via--- VL&A. A roundabout route to be sure, but theoretically possible.
However, Jovino (and the rest of Iron Alley) had a T-I-G-H-T relationship with the factory. If Joe Rookie, who bought his shooting iron at Jovinos, was unhappy with it, he likely would have returned it to Jovinos.
Some possibilities:
Jovinos returned to gun to S&W for some reason and it went back into inventory and was re-sold. Possible but then the letter should show a sale to the next dealer and not Jovino (although the records are byzantine at times and nowhere near complete).
Some cop bought the gun, re-sold it and it worked it’s way West and landed around Chicago. Possible. Maybe the guy left ‘da Job and took his piece with him.
Jovino was jobbing the gun. I’ve seen lots of orders (albeit in the immediate post-war era) of guys in Iron Alley ordering 50 or 100 guns with a notation to send them to the Austin TX Police Department or some other similar distant location. Again, possible, but if there was an agency in the Chicago area looking for guns, I think they would have gone through a local dealer rather than one in NYC.
Unless I turn up something more, it’s always going to be speculation about whether this gun went to an NYPD officer or not. What is unimpeachable is that it –is—a New York Police Target Model, it –was—shipped to Jovinos and it –has—the slickest trigger pull I’ve ever felt.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Best,
RM Vivas
Last edited:
...Ben
