Has the Scout Rifle Outlived it's Hey Day?

[brendonjames65]

I’ve always enjoyed Jeff Cooper’s writings. Perhaps a minor point, he was not a full bird colonel. His highest rank achieved in the Marines was Lieutenant Colonel and if one chooses to refer to him by rank it should be LtCol and if he were still alive today he would correct them as well.

I find it rather distasteful to speak ill of the dead since they cannot defend themselves anymore and reading some of the negative comments here I consider them to be in “poor form.” I believe he made some worthwhile contributions and should be applauded for such. I’m quite certain he ruffled some feathers, so be it, have a tissue.

I freely admit some bias since I grew up reading Keith, O’Connor, Cooper, Askins, Jordan, Skelton and others. They were my hero’s back then and all made worthwhile contributions. I myself, will not speak ill of a patriotic American who served honorably in WWII and Korea, and made some worthwhile contributions and was considered the father of the modern technique of handgun shooting.

 

[raljr1]

I am going to jump in here and say that I thought that the Remington 760 with an 18" barrel was a great "scout" type rifle. Mine has the longer barrel, but for caliber choices, detachable magazine, quick follow up shots without taking your cheek off the gun, and accuracy that is more than adequate, it would be hard to beat. Except you have to mount the scope on the receiver.

 

[Fishinfool]

The closest to owning a scout type rifle I have come is probably an SKS with a forward mounted long eye relief scope. I have shot a few bolt actions set up as scout rifles though. Really didn't see any advantage, and didn't care for the rifles balance with the forward mounted optics.

Larry

 

[ruger 22]

Petepeterson, that is the number I got when I got "scoped."

 

[brendonjames65]

I read his articles too. The following photo made me realize he was full of hooey! There no way he carried that Mulie down a mountain like that. He probably had 3 guys help hoist it onto his shoulders, they snapped the photo, then he went to the doctor and got his hernia repaired.

Even if you were strong enough to do that, it seems like a good way to get shot!

I’ve always liked this photo actually. A photo op no doubt but it reminds me of a time when men were men.

 

[brendonjames65]

Perfectly describes the man I met one time years back. He was perhaps the biggest Alpha Hotel I ever had the displeasure of meeting. I was a guest at the home in which I met him, so I remained polite but could not wait to leave. I started reading about him, witnessed the remarkable similarity between his Gunsite emblems to Nazi memorabilia as well as his cultish admiration to many things Aryan and came to the conclusion that he was a total ****** fruitcake.

Tying Jeff Cooper to Nazi’s? There is only one group who consistently uses the Nazi label attaching it to people they dislike never mind any conclusive evidence. Not very lawyer like, eh?

 

[shawn mccarver]

If you cannot afford the Steyr, an excellent base for a custom Scout is the Howa 1500 “Superlite,” which weighs 4 lb. 7 oz. without optic or sling in .308 caliber. While alive, “Uncle Jeff,” said if you could not or would not go all in on a Scout, the next best thing was the Ruger 77 Lightweight with a standard 4 power scope in the traditional position. There are a number of rifles that fit the short barrel, light weight description. The fixed 4 power, on the other hand is impossible in a quality optic. Leupold makes an excellent low power variable optic that, if I recall, is a 1-5, or something like that, which mounts in the traditional (not forward) position. The Scout was designed to do many jobs well as a rifleman on a scouting mission (for game or enemy combatants) may not know exactly what job needs doing until the problem presents.

 

[Llance]

Time to revisit this conversation. When I bought my Rem., 600 I did so because I wanted a bolt action .308. I didn't give a ratspatutie be it short barreled or mid-barrel scope or if it was light as a bumblebee. I was looking for a .308 so that when the governor came looking for my SA M1A, I would have an excuse for all the 7.62X51 and .308 ammo in the dungeon. Now there are a few things I don't like about it, but the greatest dislike is the stock is slicker than an ice-skating pond in spring. Some self-sticking sanding discs have mostly solved that problem. (I hate pressed checkering) Some day when all my other chores are caught up, I may just sit down and attempt to properly cut the checkering. Someday?

 

[Oldsalt66]

So is this a “scout rifle”?
Rossi R-95 .30-30 with full RPP treatment and 2x prism optic. It’s lightweight, quite fast both to sight in and cycle, and a hoot to shoot.

Note: no Marlins were harmed creating this image! I confess that I did this partly to horrify the more closed-minded members of the MarlinOwners forum.

Actually, it is.

 

[M29since14]

…I myself, will not speak ill of a patriotic American who served honorably in WWII and Korea, and made some worthwhile contributions and was considered the father of the modern technique of handgun shooting.

Right. But one need not fret overly much about Cooper not being here to “defend” himself. He never did much of that while he was here. Ken Hackathorn recalled that he once tried “to correct him” on some minor point. The response was a blank stare off into space and he could see the mental “delete button” being pushed. I had to laugh at that. What a great recollection, and I considered it completely in character with what little I knew of him.

I too wish the “Col. Cooper” stuff could have been dispensed with, but not owing to the difference between COL and LTC. It just seemed overused to the point of being obsequious. Perceptions may vary.

This strays a bit from the topic of the Scout rifle, and I apologize for that, but it is difficult, no matter which way you lean, to separate Jeff Cooper from the Scout rifle subject. I’d not heard his comment about the Ruger 77 and 4x scope, but it does not really surprise me.

 

[Brian Parrish]

I too wish the “Col. Cooper” stuff could have been dispensed with, but not owing to the difference between COL and LTC. It just seemed overused to the point of being obsequious. Perceptions may vary.

This strays a bit from the topic of the Scout rifle, and I apologize for that, but it is difficult, no matter which way you lean, to separate Jeff Cooper from the Scout rifle subject. I’d not heard his comment about the Ruger 77 and 4x scope, but it does not really surprise me.

There was an old southern affectation of confederates calling each other "Colonel" around the turn of the 20th century and continuing. It was meant as respect, I think, and I do not know how widespread it was, but my impression was that any veteran above sergeant was called captain, and anyone above that was called colonel, unless he was known to have been an actual general. (Please correct me with my thanks.)
If you know the etiquette for an honorary doctorate, this was similar.
The governor of Kentucky made Harland Sanders an honorary colonel, still the highest award the Ky governor can give.
You can join the Honorable Order of Kentucky Colonels by helping with their benevolent efforts. A most worthy group indeed.
Anyway, the proper way to address a Lt. Colonel named Cooper is "Colonel Cooper". How this could be overused or how it could be considered obsequious is beyond me.

Connecting him to the scout rifle concept is to fundamentally misunderstand him. It is also a fundamental misunderstanding of the scout rifle concept as well, but I must admit that it is routine for people to do this. The wiki article on "scout rifle" is typical, so I accept that your statement above as perfectly understandable., akin to associating the scout rifle with the forward mounted scope.

I have no right to speak with authority, but here is where I am coming from. I have read everything by him twice, and really took it all to heart. I have also read everything he recommended for reading including "Jock of the Bushveldt" and I did this after long study and partly because of long study of the Anglo-Boer War. The Colonel's experience in South Africa, and his admiration for the Boers of history, and for the South African shooting sportsmen of his day informs profoundly everything he wrote. He uses the term "scout" in the same way and for the same reason that Baden-Powel used the term when he founded the Boy Scouts. B-P had done much of the reconnaisance work himself during his successful defense of Mafeking.

I enjoyed this thread!

Kind Regards Brendon and All!
BrianD

 

[shawn mccarver]

I re-read this thread again today, and appreciate all of the opinions, both positive and negative, about Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle idea. Some were expressed by people who have not read Jeff Cooper's writings, and some were expressed by people without experience actually using a true Scout Rifle. That's ok, that all figures into the weight given the opinion. C'est la vie.

That said, a few members posted classless and in some cases baseless allegations against Col. Cooper.

One person accused him of being a Nazi because of the Raven logo he chose for Gunsite, the reasons given very thoroughly in writing by Col. Cooper at the time.

Another accused him of being a liar because the member cannot imagine a man being able to lift and carry a dead animal on his shoulders.

Another accused Col. Cooper of being an "Alpha Hotel" because he apparently did not realize Col. Cooper did not like small talk, preferring instead philosophy or other topics requiring thought before talking.

At one point, one member said Col. Cooper dropped the 1911 as his carry gun for the SIG 225 when the 225 came out. To that person, I would say, do you know who Jeff Cooper is, have you ever read anything he wrote, do you know what the SIG 225 is, and do you know what cartridge it chambers? As one member said, it truly felt like people were just making up stuff at that point.

I found these and maybe a few others both classless and baseless, and an embarrassment, such comments being more of what one might expect on Facebook instead of this fine forum.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

I can't believe no one has yet mentioned Gale McMillan's comment on the scout rifle concept, to paraphrase: "A pistol shooter's idea of what a rifle should look like."

And further:

"You will have to acknowledge that Jeff Cooper is the father of the scout rifle. If you have ever had more than a two minute conversation with him he will have told you that a rifle doesn't have to shoot better than 3 MOA. Being some one who has spent the last 50 years dedicated to making rifles shoot as well as possible I will say that if a rifle will not put the bullet within one caliber of point of aim at a 100 yards then it won't shoot well enough! The major point of a rifle is to be able to hit the object being shot at..."

"I have no quarrel with those who are willing to give up performance to be in the crowd of Me To. I can readily understand that the average man can't hit a road sign at over 25 yards but to cease to strive for excellence in performance is to stop any further development of the rifle."

Also, put me in the camp that the revisionist view of Cooper, generally, is long overdue.

 

[M29since14]

Brian… whenever I spoke with him, he being 30-years my senior, I addressed him as Mr. Cooper. He never objected.

I have to agree with Shawn that “small talk” did not seem to be one of his favored pastimes.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I can't believe no one has yet mentioned Gale McMillan's comment on the scout rifle concept:

If you have ever had more than a two minute conversation with him he will have told you that a rifle doesn't have to shoot better than 3 MOA.

What Col. Cooper actually said was that he would like both a great trigger and MOA accuracy, but that if he had to choose between a great trigger and MOA accuracy, he would rather have a fine "glass rod" trigger than MOA accuracy.

And, his comment about a rifle not needing to be more than 3 MOA was in the context of the fact that 99% of shooters are simply incapable of better than that using field positions. I suppose, however, that most people shoot from a bench these days, but that was not to what he was referring.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I’m always amazed that we don’t hear more of the fella that squeezed off a round right in front of Cooper at a conference, using Cooper’s rifle and ammunition laid out on the table . . .

 

[hardluk1]

Maybe the scout tifle was only notice and promoting in gun rags of the day do to col.jeff cooper being what he was of the day .

I bought a rem 788 18.5" barrel in 308 as my first hunting rifle in '73 when I turned 18. I also bought 4 extra mags and no stripper clips were wanted . That rifle also had a 60* bolt throw not coopers idea of a 90* bolt so it was quicker for follow shots if needed and was moa shooter or slightly less threw the years .

I never cared for so col. jeff cooper's scout rifle idea of mounting the scope forward of the bolt when box mag were common or the ching sling jeff cooper liked . To me it was a mistake to call the scout rifle a guide rifle out side of africa maybe , or just a mistake all around . His spec of accuracy at distance might have been OK for shoot at people as he stated but it was loosey for a hunter . But remember if you build it some one may buy it specially if you have the name jeff cooper .

By the time cooper's scout rifle became a hot topic in the early '80's I was well seasoned at dropping deer or hogs at distances ranging from 25 feet in thick hardwood swaps of the fakahatchee strand with a 2.5-10 scope or step out to one of the old logging trams to return to camp or on a tall grass praire and make a heart or neck shot at 300 to 350 yards from a deer and sdrop it where it stood or very close by . Hitting tissue out to 500 so called yards as cooper felt was good enough is low class to me !

I using a 2.5-10 scope and a lighter than 3lb trigger . I use a boonie packers safari sling since '79 or '80 and still use it and a few extra ounces of weight did not matter with that sling and far better design than a ching sling .

I did get a chance to shoot a gun owner when they first came out that had a 2x luppy scout scope on it . I felt it was an over priced nothing special shooter with limited uses maybe do to the scope and mounting location with only ok accuracy at 100 yards . I do know that the rifles owner removed the luppy scout scope for a proper scope and rings for a far more normal location .


If you looking for a short rifle today with choice of cartridge for your needs and higher cap box mags that are a number of choice to buy over some cooper scout design .

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Jeff Cooper just liked to hear himself talk, usually offering answers and opinions to questions nobody asked. It didn’t matter what the subject was.
Typically, he began with a vague premise, then he would start piling on abitrary qualifications or details. Occasionally, the result was mildly entertaining, even (unintentionally?) comedic. These long-winded monologues were a sort of mental “Rube Goldberg” process, and the outcome was usually a bit of a mess. The “scout rifle” is a perfect example.
If you ever watched “The Simpsons”, the best analogy would be the episode where Homer Simpson designs a new car. It was supposed to combine every feature and idea he thought would define the ultimate all-purpose vehicle. (See attached)
Of course, the resulting eyesore was a flop! Now, re-read the title posted for this thread!

In general terms, just about any good hunting rifle or military surplus carbine would suffice in the role. The crucial factor, conveniently overlooked, is a competent marksman.
To underscore the point, read “Never Surrender: My Thirty Year War” by Hiroo Onoda. He was a WWII Japanese holdout that fought a guerrilla war on Lubang Island from 1944-1974. He spent thirty years, mostly in the jungle, gathering intelligence, carrying out raids, hunting, and living off the land, all the while convinced Japan was still fighting and winning the war. His rifle? A 7.7mm Arisaka. (See third picture)
With that being said, most folks would be better served if they simply had a better background in the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship, and perhaps some good instruction in smallbore or high power competitive shooting. From that point, you can make your own intelligent choices concerning stock shape, stock fitting, and sights.
You’d be much better off than listening to Cooper’s endless ramblings.
In fact, you’d be better off just reading “The Rifle Book” (1949) by Jack O’Connor. Besides his fondness for the Winchester 70 in .270, he was a strong advocate of handy carbines, such as his custom 7mm Mauser 98. (See the attached photo.)
That more than suffices in the “Scout rifle” role, and does it with a lot more class! Sure, you can quibble about details like iron sights. So, go ahead, add a Williams Foolproof receiver sight: problem solved 100 years ago!

As has already been pointed out, Jeff Cooper was a salesman. No surprise, therefore, that his chosen platform for promoting his rifle was “Guns & Ammo” magazine, home of articles such as: “Revolver vs. Auto: Which is Best” or “9mm vs. 45 ACP: for Service and Defense” and other such erudite fodder.
And, maybe, that was/is a significant point: to create a market demand for a (not so) new product.
But, more importantly, Jeff Cooper was a cultist. Beyond the hyperbole and salesmanship, from reading his books and articles, what he really sought was a band of worshipping followers.
He wasn’t interested in your ideas. He wanted you to adhere to his. And, hence, the “scout rifle”.

Like........Like.........2 more likes.

 

[smoothshooter]

I like the idea of a light powerful rifle. That was the basis of Coopers philosophy. I don't care for barrel mounted scopes, though I understand his thoughts about being able to shoot with both eyes open so you keep your peripheral vision in play.

That being said, my decision was an AR platform .308 with an LPVO. It's a little heavy but I like semiautos and 20 round mags. It'll do.....

I have shot with both eyes open since age 7. Nobody told me to; it just seemed natural and I never gave it any thought.

 

[ajaxinfinitum]

I think it might still be practical for whitetail hunting in the woods here in PA (no semi-autos allowed). Don't go that way myself, though. Hunt from a blind on my farm, shooting across my grain fields, so it's mostly shooting sticks and a scoped 22-24 inch 270 or 7mm mag for me and my kids.

had more deer kills with the 70's ruger semi Auto .22 than anything.