Revolver Verus Automatic

[jimmyj]

I have asked during qualifications:
"Why does revolver shooters required to shoot the course using double action only but automatic shooter using a DA/SA Pistol fire the first round double action and the remainder rounds single action"?

I have yet received a satisfactory answer.

 

[Greyman50]

Just use a 1911….

 

[UncleEd]

If using a DA/SA auto, it is assumed that the firearm is carried with hammer down and the natural thing would be to fire the first shot DA rather then try and manipulate to SA. Among others,
this is particularly true of the popular SIG 220/226 and Beretta 92s series.

With DA/SA revolvers, the practice of combat shooting is almost exclusively double action. I know I never bothered with the SA capability.

 

[cherrypointmarine]

Several of my PC guns are single action like a 1911 . How would they know if you were to shoot something other than a 1911 if it was single action ? Are they going to make you take the slide off to see if it was SAO ?

 

[326MOD10]

UncleEd hit the nail on the head.

You won't be carrying that revolver with the hammer cocked, nor is it a good idea to take the time to cock it in a true defensive shooting scenario.

Train and especially qualify like it happens.

 

[UncleEd]

Train and especially qualify like it happens.

This says it all.

 

[Marshal Tom]

I have answered a lot of stuff over the years on here but not sure how to answer this one without being somewhat sarcastic. It's about the design of the firearm and how they are designed to fired as generally carried. double action revolvers were never intended to be cocked, single action in a combat situation, only for a deliberate distance shot. A double/single action semi auto is carried with the hammer down and fired with the long trigger pull for the first shot and then it cocked itself with subsequent shots fired single action. You would have to de cock the action or let the hammer down each time between shots in order to fire again. Two totally different operations.Really uncertain as to why you asked this question or if you were seriously looking for an answer!

 

[cd228]

It is rather simple. If your qualification is supposed to test your capabilities in a combat situation, then you operate your weapon as it would during a combat encounter. Does your agency teach you to break your grip and thumb cock your revolver during combat or do they teach you to fire your revolver DA?

 

[Oldsalt66]

Each accepted mode of operation represents the normal operation of the respective handguns.

 

[LVSteve]

In my state qualifying with a semi-auto also clears you to carry a revolver. I find that amusing because if you give the average polymer semi shooter a revolver and tell them to shoot it DA, they will have trouble hitting the barn from the inside.

 

[Muss Muggins]

"Because I said so . . . "

 

[jimmyj]

In the late 1960-1970 era when police combat shooting for beginning in my area one of our female officers carried a S&W Model 15 4" as her service arm. Shot a really high score. Her method was in the two hand hold cocking the hammer with her left thumb and firing. She was very good using this method as her score proved it. Somewhere the powers had her stop this method. I watched her method and she did not cock the hammer until she had obtained the two hand hold and was on target and when the sight picture was obtained, then her left thumb cocked the hammer. she was fast and accurate.

 

[mikerjf]

IIRC the Japanese police that the 360J was made for were trained to shoot mainly single-action, out of concern for bystanders with missed shots. Exception to every rule!

 

[UncleEd]

Yes, with a two hand hold one can cock and fire a revolver extremely fast and often accurately. Cowboy Action Shooters prove this all the time with their SA revolvers.

But in what may be called modern combat shooting, the two handed hold is not always possible. Many things prevent it. Better to know how to fire that revolver double action.

 

[BB57]

I have asked during qualifications:
"Why does revolver shooters required to shoot the course using double action only but automatic shooter using a DA/SA Pistol fire the first round double action and the remainder rounds single action"?"

I have yet received a satisfactory answer.

I spent a year as a director in MN and shot their concealed carry permit qualification course - such as it was.

The instructor did a one to one with each student in the class working with them until they could demonstrate sufficient safety and accuracy.

When he got to me he had me engage the B-27 target at 7 yards. I fired 6 shots of my usual 125 gr JHP carry load out of my Model 66, rapid fire, double action and produces a group center of the X ring about 2" in diameter. (I normally shoot center of mass but wanted to demonstrate accuracy as well as consistency in this situation.)

He said "I noticed you did that double action, that's excellent. Are you shooting .38 or .357?" I replied ".357" and he said "of course" and said I was good to go. If I had fired single action he'd have wanted 6 more shots DA to demonstrate suitable accuracy, and a faster rate of fire. As it was, it was the shortest Q course I ever fired.

DA is important as:

- in a self defense situation you just won't have the time to cock the hammer:

- it adds an element of fine motor control that may elude you under extreme stress;

- even with a two hand grip, it forces you to shift your grip on the revolver; and

- you don't always have the option of using a two hand grip. For example, shooting from a close in retention position and lifting your thumb off the left grip panel to cock the hammer greatly decreases your ability to retain the revolver.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

In the late 1960-1970 era when police combat shooting for beginning in my area one of our female officers carried a S&W Model 15 4" as her service arm. Shot a really high score. Her method was in the two hand hold cocking the hammer with her left thumb and firing. She was very good using this method as her score proved it. Somewhere the powers had her stop this method. I watched her method and she did not cock the hammer until she had obtained the two hand hold and was on target and when the sight picture was obtained, then her left thumb cocked the hammer. she was fast and accurate.

Back in those days Agencies just follow FBI Guidelines and cocking SA was gaming the system. In a gunfight with a DA revolver, SA does not make sense

50+ years later many lessons have been learned and if you continued training you will know the latest techniques. Of course about half of the cops shoot the way they did in the Police Academy and never consider going to Thunder Ranch, Gunsite Academy or others for advance Firearms Training.

So now when I see people shoot I got a good ideal when and where they got their Training. 1964, 1974, 1984, 1994 or post 9/11.

Now I saw a young fella shooting like that (see picture) and I asked him how he learned to shoot like that. He said his Great Uncle who was a Sheriff (1950s-1970s) taught him.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

IIRC the Japanese police that the 360J was made for were trained to shoot mainly single-action, out of concern for bystanders with missed shots. Exception to every rule!

Australian cops have to fire a "Warning Shot" before using deadly force. An Australian Police Sergeant was killed doing that since bad guys/gals do not have Rules Of Engagement.

 

[S-W4EVER]

In the late 1960-1970 era when police combat shooting for beginning in my area one of our female officers carried a S&W Model 15 4" as her service arm. Shot a really high score. Her method was in the two hand hold cocking the hammer with her left thumb and firing. She was very good using this method as her score proved it. Somewhere the powers had her stop this method. I watched her method and she did not cock the hammer until she had obtained the two hand hold and was on target and when the sight picture was obtained, then her left thumb cocked the hammer. she was fast and accurate.

I doubt she'd (or any of us, for that matter) would have that much time in a real shootout.

 

[Big Dave in WNC]

And there's also this (and I am speaking of LE agencies-you didn't specify if it's LE, concealed carry class, or range rules):

In the scenario you set out (qualifying) you KNOW you are going to be firing all the rounds. In real life encounters-you will likely NOT be firing-only covering or drawing and then reholstering. Then, you have the cocked revolver to deal with. Even if it's on the 2nd, 3rd, or 5th shot (to align better with your scenario of "after the first shot".)

Heres where I fear I may "step on toes" but this is the no BS answer. As stated above most policy and doctrine on revolvers only acknowledged DA fire in defensive situations. But AFTER the situation has changed (he's down-now have to move to cuffing, or it changed from a deadly force to non-deadly force encounter) the NOW COCKED revolver is a major safety concern. I KNOW that it's a nearly thoughtless and completely natural movement to a real revolver guy or gal to thumb the hammer and pull the trigger and follow it down, BUT tons of negligent discharges have occurred at this stage, in both LE, military and civilian settings. Even by serious gun aficionados. Even with highly trained shooters and instructors. I KNOW that would never happen to you, but it happens, and those folks never thought it would happen to them either.

So I don't think agencies (and maybe instructors even in the CHP classes) are not willing to even acknowledge you may be standing there with a cocked revolver that needs to be made safe, at any stage, on the range (or later, on the street). I certainly wouldn't encourage it or even knowingly allow it as an instructor, although I sometimes shoot SA when shooting recreationally, but that's it.

Not proud of this but I had two NDs in my entire life, and both were with revolvers, and both in my teens before I ever had a DAY of formal firearms training. Fortunately no one was hurt, but because of this I am even more vocal (like how sometimes the most vocal non-smoker is a former smoker).

 

[cd228]

There are some older lawmen in this thread, so they can probably fill in the details. Back in the 80s NYPD converted their revolvers to double action only, allegedly after an officer with a cocked revolver accidentally shot and killed a surrendering suspect.

I'm not sure where they were in the overall movement of LE to DAO revolvers, whether the accidental death actually happened, ill defer to the old timers.