Banned Firearm

[Oldsalt66]

This is my last comment to you on this thread because obviously you never intended to participate in good faith. You entered the thread with snarky condescension, so I responded to you in kind, albeit with quite a bit more restraint. I tried to discuss the topic at hand with an objective, mechanical based analysis devoid of insults or brand loyalty. It's been my observation that those who have nothing to add tend to be the first to resort to rudeness and put-downs, because that's all they have. I did not start down this road, you did.

You know absolutely nothing about me and obviously don't know anything about how the firearm being discussed works. By your own admission, you don't own a P320 or any of its direct competitors, probably have never detail stripped one, have never studied how its design compares to competing pistols. I own one and have worked on them many times. I own many of the pistols it competes with. I used to manufacture custom pistol parts and do custom machining on pistol slides in a previous job when micro red dot sights on pistols first became a popular thing. In that time, I detail stripped many pistols, installed aftermarket parts, installed parts of my own design, and had parts nitrided after I machined them. I'm a PE, a degreed mechanical engineer, and have worked on multiples of firearms of many types as a part time gunsmith for about 35 years. I enjoy building precision bolt action rifles. I have made many firearms parts in my job, working in the CNC machining industry. My opinion about a given topic may not always be correct, but it is always based on first hand, hands-on experience with the subject I'm discussing or I refrain from discussing it. There are certain mechanical principles of firearms that are common knowledge, are immutable and not subject to opinion; they just are. By me citing some simple mechanical facts about a gun, I'm not creating anything out of thin air. Anyone who takes the guns apart will observe exactly the same things if they understand what they're looking at. Every design of everything involves making a series of calculated tradeoffs of pros and cons.

Instead of providing any useful insight to the discussion, you resort to insults, just as you did from the beginning and in the other thread on this topic. I don't care if you believe anything I say or not, but you can at least respectfully disagree and discuss in good faith without the insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but you can do so without being insufferable.

Projection, AKA accusing others of exactly what they, themselves, are doing; it's a real thing.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

I wouldn't belong to a gun club that banned a handgun based upon hearsay and is in wide use. Have they banned Colt 1903 pistols or series 70 or pre-series 70 1911's. Have they banned Ruger Blackhawks that were made prior to the safety bar and not modified? Have they banned original Colt Peacemakers? I could go on and on. What next, ban evil black rifles?

I would imagine they might ban the use of those on their property if there were a bunch of documented cases of the same types of incidents involving P320s... but there isn't. Rest assured, no gun club, training academy, or range wants to prohibit any model of firearm on their property.

However, they are a business. Their liability insurance is very expensive. They are more exposed to potential lawsuits than other types of businesses. I would even bet many of these gun clubs don't even have a strong opinion either way about the P320. Whether the P320 has issues or not, it now has a stigma attached to it that isn't going away anytime soon. As a result of that stigma, the risks outweigh the rewards for many of these gun clubs, being a business who wishes to not be sued. In the event someone gets injured, or God forbid, killed while on their property involving a P320, this opens themselves up to potential lawsuits above and beyond those they are already exposed to by simply operating a business involving guns. A plaintiff attorney for an injured party can simply make the case that the business owner "had prior knowledge of the risks of a known defective gun," whether that argument is valid or not. In the legal sphere, things don't have to be logical or true, they only have to convince a jury of the validity of the case. To many business owners who wish to stay in business, it's simply not worth the risk for the few customers it might impact.

Something is apparently wrong with the P320 given that it is the one common factor in all these reported UD cases. Whether the UDs are directly related to a design flaw or not is currently undetermined and subject to debate. However, even if we assume that 100% of all these cases were the result of careless actions, then it is still fair to question why all of this negligence is seemingly confined to this one pistol and not others in the same class. Even if 100% of the P320s involved in these incidents are in perfect working order, perhaps some characteristic of the model makes it inherently less forgiving of handling mistakes. Or, maybe nothing is wrong at all and it is just a case of monumentally bad luck that defies statistical probability against this one gun.

It's not difficult to understand why a private business owner (who is already exposed to above normal liability by the very nature of the business) might decide it's simpler to restrict use of a questionable product, at least until more information is uncovered, than to take unnecessary risks.

 

[Equus]

This is my last comment to you on this thread because obviously you never intended to participate in good faith. You entered the thread with snarky condescension, so I responded to you in kind, albeit with quite a bit more restraint. I tried to discuss the topic at hand with an objective, mechanical based analysis devoid of insults or brand loyalty. It's been my observation that those who have nothing to add tend to be the first to resort to rudeness and put-downs, because that's all they have. I did not start down this road, you did.

You know absolutely nothing about me and obviously don't know anything about how the firearm being discussed works. By your own admission, you don't own a P320 or any of its direct competitors, probably have never detail stripped one, have never studied how its design compares to competing pistols. I own one and have worked on them many times. I own many of the pistols it competes with. I used to manufacture custom pistol parts and do custom machining on pistol slides in a previous job when micro red dot sights on pistols first became a popular thing. In that time, I detail stripped many pistols, installed aftermarket parts, installed parts of my own design, and had parts nitrided after I machined them. I'm a PE, a degreed mechanical engineer, and have worked on multiples of firearms of many types as a part time gunsmith for about 35 years. I enjoy building precision bolt action rifles. I have made many firearms parts in my job, working in the CNC machining industry. My opinion about a given topic may not always be correct, but it is always based on first hand, hands-on experience with the subject I'm discussing or I refrain from discussing it. There are certain mechanical principles of firearms that are common knowledge, are immutable and not subject to opinion; they just are. By me citing some simple mechanical facts about a gun, I'm not creating anything out of thin air. Anyone who takes the guns apart will observe exactly the same things if they understand what they're looking at. Every design of everything involves making a series of calculated tradeoffs of pros and cons.

Instead of providing any useful insight to the discussion, you resort to insults, just as you did from the beginning and in the other thread on this topic. I don't care if you believe anything I say or not, but you can at least respectfully disagree and discuss in good faith without the insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but you can do so without being insufferable.

I put him on ignore. He has never added anything to any discussion preferring to act like a 5 year old .

 

[eclayton]

Aahh, range officers, you gotta love 'em. Other jokes they tell are "Get that magazine out!" when you are shooting an FN-49 and "Dump the live rounds out the bottom" when you are shooting an 03A3 bolt gun with a blind magazine.

I think sometimes they get lonely and come stick their nose in someone's business just to make conversation. I knew one at the NRA range in Fairfax, VA who interrupted me three times to remind me that headshots on the target were not allowed. Third time I asked him to wait while I reeled my B27 target back in, then asked, where do you see headshots? The 9 and 10 rings were shot ragged, no holes outside the 9. He said "Oh, well, it looked like you were aiming kind of high."

I don't blame the OP for his range rules; can't do business without them. But it reminds me why I became so much happier after I bought a small ranch in the middle of Florida, where I can just walk out my back door and decide what I want to shoot at, after checking there are no cows in that direction. I could even shoot a P320 if I had a mind to, but I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole until ALL the dust settles with the holster discharge saga, and major agencies that grounded it put it back into service.

 

[RebCop]

It's time for all that unsubstantiated pearl clutching to finally come to an end:

https://www.afgsc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/4284351/afgsc-completes-m18-handgun-inspection-returns-to-service/

"A review of weapon discharges in AFGSC showed that none were attributed to weapons malfunction."

Then explain the weapons going off in holsters?