Banned Firearm

Sig has really changed their tune on what they say today vs how they marketed the P320 at the beginning. Also, when they first responded to the unintended discharge claims and the holster firing videos, they first said in their press releases "the P320 cannot fire without the trigger being fully actuated." Then when the Wyoming guy video came out, the wording in their press releases suddenly morphed into "the P320 cannot fire without the trigger being moved to the rear."
This plays into how Sig Sauer continues to frame their position per the portion of their recent open letter I posted above. The terms they're using in that document are "trigger pull" and "trigger actuation" neither of which are for the purpose of their claims well defined. Does taking up that bit of slack in the trigger (simulated by inserting the screw now infamous in this thread) count as either by their standards? That might render their argument in a narrow sense technically correct, but actually disingenuous and highly misleading as to the core issue of whether a discharge is uncommanded or not.
 
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I would like a link to that statement and I could be wrong but all the antics of Glock that I have ever seen , including one that involved my own personal Glock having a defective passive striker safety, were voluntary "upgrades", admittedly a slick and disingenuous term Glock uses for "recall" but nevertheless not mandatory and "not labeled recall".

If Glock really had an actual "recall" please give me a link to that recall as I would be highly interested in reviewing it.
As a Glock Master Armorer for LE since 1989, I can attest to mechanical failures due to engineering and manufacturing. Glock has provided "upgrades" for Law Enforcement for decades and released new generations to address these failure/modifications. They aren't alone as most manufacturers "tweak" mass-produced products as the line matures. Some are more honest about it than others.
 
Sig has repeatedly let its customers be beta testers on both design changes to the P320 and P365. All of these issues started when Ron Cohen arrived at Sig. Cohen was previously the CEO of Kimber and Kimber's quality took a serious nosedive under Cohen's leadership because of his tendency to cut corners and get parts made by the lowest bidder.


Kimber.webp
 
Those seem to be the most likely scenarios for what takes place in the holster discharges.
I'm just curioius…

Has anyone (credible expert) taken a dozen or so of the top holsters that are being used by an agency, military, or popular with the civilian class, and tested to determine if an uncommanded discharge could be caused?
 
He did that to remove initial trigger takeup to demonstrate how short the trigger travel has to go from rest position to put the gun into a marginal sear engagement position. The common comment about the allegations that the gun is going off while in holsters has been that something in the holster must be putting pressure on the trigger, so he was showing how little pressure and movement of the trigger it takes. With competing striker pistols, doing the same would not drop the sear enough that slide movement can fire the pistol. It was attempting to demonstrate what could happen if any debris caused the sear to not fully reset or if something in the holster was pressing against the side of the trigger in conjunction with the holster jiggling the front of the slide. It also shows how if parts are very slightly out of spec, it can create a potentially dangerous condition. There have been similar tests done on other striker pistols and in all of them you can move the trigger close to or slightly beyond the wall and eventually make them fire without fully depressing the trigger in the same way as the P320. However, the difference with the P320 is how short the trigger has to travel before being put into this condition. In other words, the P320 trigger has very little takeup, and that's a bit of a risky thing when it has no trigger dingus preventing an AD from a holster putting slight side pressure on the trigger in conjunction with a striker safety that disengages very early in the trigger takeup travel.
Even with the Gray Guns competition trigger kits, MY P320 Xfives have a LOT more pre travel than ANY of my 1911s, and 2011s, and they aren't banned anywhere.
There's always a percentage of people that probably shouldn't be handling guns. Banning a model of gun, due to inept handling is just stupid
 
All (maybe the vast majority) are end user error. (Just like on computers!)
LEOs are generally poorly qualified and experienced to handle, use, and work with firearms. Agencies are generally too "cheap" to buy proper accessories to demand/pay for continual training of the officers. (Many to the videos shows officers who do not understand or practice good gun hygiene -- such as using their holstered duty handgun as a shelf to carry stuff, etc.)
The Air Force airmen who was shot and killed, based on the arrest of another airmen, was manslaughter. That is, a negligent discharge and not a "uncommanded" discharge.
Amazingly, most people tends to think that a lethal weapon can't cause a fatality.
These bans appear to be over-reactions. On the other hand, safety caused over-reactions aren't the biggest problem. Plus, striker-fired handguns have always demanded more specific safety/handling training than hammer-fired handguns.
Growing pains (But Sig could do a better job in managing this fiasco.)
Sir

Having become a LE deadly force instructor in 1989 and still teaching LE instructor an international LE training organization, your comments are extremely ignorant. Most police agencies aren't too cheap to properly train employees or purchase correct and quality support gear, hammer-fired pistols are much more susceptible to unintentional discharge in the fight environment, qualification has NOTHING to do with the recent issue Sig 320 concern, and lastly, you know absolutely nothing about an individuals firearms maintenance by looking at YouTube videos. And "using holsters as a shelf" (I assume you mean an action creating pressure on the holstered pistol) should never cause discharge of a holstered handgun. What external pressures do you imagine occur during violent alterations, running, etc? Sig has a problem and have responded by blaming others while quietly trying to figure out a fix. The 320 is a line-extension that was hastily cobbled together for a trial where they had been pre-selected. During an instructor-level rifle course I was teaching in SC 6-7 years ago, officers from a local agency left their new Sig rifles lying at the rear of the range and were using older Bushmasters. When I asked about it, they said the Bushmasters worked and the Sig's did not. Sig has corrected those concerns and I'm confident they will do the same with the 320 line but they deserve the recent firestorm.
 
Why is a screw stuck into the trigger?
The screw is stuck into the trigger to move the trigger to a condition simulating an object dislodging the trigger from the position of the factory "safety rest position". If I understand correctly it takes little pressure on the trigger to induce this condition. There is still some thought that the holsters are inducing this movement of the trigger causing the "uncommanded discharges". This has not been proven. I suspect that the "uncommanded discharges" are caused by improper assembly technique. The Sig manual specifies that the slide be locked open with the slide lock which completely retracts the sear from the striker before the "take down latch" is returned to the locked position. Bottom line is, a Sig P320/M17/M18 isn't a Glock and can't be slapped back together like a Glock. The uncommanded discharges are occurring frequently with LEOs.
 
I bought a M17 for my active duty grandson, it has only had a few hundred rounds through it. I had not heard of problems with the M17, but would like to know what they are!
Early on, the P320 was shown to fire from inertia if dropped on its rear end at a certain angle.

If dropped on the muzzle, the firing pin safety is designed to prevent inertial discharge, but SIG Sauer did not incorporate a tabbed trigger safety as you see on most all other striker fired pistols, the purpose of which is to stop an inertial discharge if the pistol is dropped on its rear end.

SIG Sauer did a "voluntary upgrade" and instead of incorporating a tabbed trigger safety, they lightened the parts so as to increase the height from which the pistol could be dropped on its rear before it would discharge. This voluntary upgrade has apparently resolved the drop safety problem.

A few years later, an entirely different issue has arisen. A lawyer who has handled many of the lawsuits against SIG Sauer, one Bagnell, I believe, coined the term uncommanded discharge (UD). A UD is when the pistol simply fires without a trigger press. This is possible because the striker is fully cocked when the chamber is loaded.

Although there are many theories, no one has yet demonstrated a repeatable issue which causes these UDs.

In addition, no satisfactory explanation has been as yet given as to why the firing pin safety is not stopping forward movement of the firing pin as it should when an UD happens as the firing pin is supposed to prevent the firing pin from striking the primer of the cartridge unless the trigger is pulled. In these UDs, the trigger is NOT pulled, yet the firing pin safety does not stop the firing pin from flying forward and striking the primer.

The last time I checked, there have been over one hundred claims or lawsuits alleging that injury occurred due to UD. SIG Sauer claims there is no problem, and although there are many theories, no one has, as yet, identified the cause of the UDs.

Many of these UDs were caught on video, so unlike in the beginning when a skeptical public tended to blame the supposedly ill-trained or incompetent police officer, it has become harder and harder for even the staunchest SIG Sauer supporter to deny the existence of a problem when video shows the UD happening when no one touches the pistol.

And, of course, since there is no warning, one never knows when or where the UD might occur. This has caused law enforcement training centers, private shooting schools, including Gunsite, and many private owners, to discontinue use of the P320 until the problem is sorted out.

Personally, I do not want to be on a range or anywhere else in the presence of a loaded P320. The one incident caught on video where the police officer's P320 discharges in the lobby of the police station demonstrates that an UD could have easily killed the officer standing behind the officer whose P320 discharged as the officer whose P320 discharged was bent over causing the muzzle of his P320 to be pointing downward and rearward when the UD occurred.

And, don't think that it cannot happen if you have an M17/18 because those models have thumb safeties. The thumb safety of the P320 only prevents movement of the trigger bar, but it does not prevent sear disengagement from the lug of the firing pin which is what happens with the UD.
 
My club has banned all 320 variations from their property. My last PD duty firearm was a Sig and I attended the Sig police armorers school. But that was years ago and we used the classic series hammer fired Sigs. I loved Sigs but presently only own a 365. I am not biased against Sigs in fact just the opposite. However I will not willingly be anywhere near a loaded 320.
My states HP carries the 320. I spoke with a trooper on another matter the other day and he was aware of the 320 controversy but did not know of any issues with their weapons.
 
Even with the Gray Guns competition trigger kits, MY P320 Xfives have a LOT more pre travel than ANY of my 1911s, and 2011s, and they aren't banned anywhere.
There's always a percentage of people that probably shouldn't be handling guns. Banning a model of gun, due to inept handling is just stupid
That's not at all a close comparison mechanically. 1911s/2011s are hammer fired guns with all the fire control parts in the frame, meaning they have a fixed positional relationship with each other and positional relationships between fire control parts cannot vary. This is unlike a striker fired pistol where the sear, trigger, and trigger bar are in the frame and the striker foot the sear engages is in the slide, where movement between the slide and rail will change the amount of sear engagement. Even that can be ok, as long as the gun also has some mechanical means to positively prevent striker movement toward a primer if sear engagement is lost. The P320 lacks this completely if the striker slips over the sear. In addition, a 1911/2011 has 2 levels of safeties completely controlled by the user - a grip safety and a manual thumb safety, both of which block the sear from being moved. The P320 has nothing mechanical preventing sear movement down at any time except for spring pressure. Absence those things and the fact the P320 is a fully cocked single action in Cond 1, in conjunction with no trigger dingus then makes the short trigger takeup and the fact the striker safety disengages early a questionable design choice. Context is everything.

If you have a round in the chamber, you have the option of either having the hammer cocked or not cocked in a 1911. You can safely have a very short pretravel and short total trigger travel under these circumstances. A P320 has none of these things and in the event the sear moves down even a little or the trigger take up is moved just a little, its main internal safety - the striker block safety - is already fully deactivated. Then if the slide has a lot of slop in it allowing up and down movement, it can cause the striker to slide off the sear. Mechanically, you almost could not get more dissimilar actions in semiauto pistols than a 1911/2011 and a P320.

And I never advocated for banning anything. I merely think Sig should do the responsible thing and at minimum redesign the P320, but preferably produce better engineered, more mechanically sound guns in the first place.
 
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Be careful ...
This Gun Banning may go places you don't expect or want it to go .
Once the Anti-Gun Bunch realize how powerful a tool it can be ...
they will be more than happy to use it on us .
Gary
Who said anything about banning something? I almost never want to ban anything. I'm a freedom-loving, limited government Constitutionalist who believes the 2A is an absolute, inviolable right without conditions. It's reasonable to simply expect gun manufacturers to produce sound designs that don't go bang when you don't want them to go bang. When a manufacturer fails to do so, it is their responsibility to fix it because its a defective, hazardous product. All consumers should expect manufacturers of the goods they buy to produce products that function correctly.
 
Already been posted more than once. And it isn't "pearl clutching," just difference of opinion. That document doesn't really say anthing conclusive about the gun itself, and in fact there is an excerpt that even hints that some of their inventory of M18s exhibited functional issues. All that document says is the USAF cleared the gun for continued use, but that inspections and repairs would be done.
 
It's time for all that unsubstantiated pearl clutching to finally come to an end:

"A review of weapon discharges in AFGSC showed that none were attributed to weapons malfunction."
That the military hasn't yet experienced a documented instance of an uncommanded discharge doesn't negate what has repeatedly occurred in the civilian sphere. It's akin to being struck by lightning. While that only rarely happens, I still don't go outside during a thunderstorm.
 
It's time for all that unsubstantiated pearl clutching to finally come to an end:


"A review of weapon discharges in AFGSC showed that none were attributed to weapons malfunction."

Yet they found 191 M18s with mechanical problems...

The inspection process identified discrepancies with 191 weapons across the command's M18 inventory. The primary discrepancy was related to component wear. The most frequent issues centered on problems with the safety lever, striker assembly and sear. Weapons exhibiting these discrepancies were immediately tagged and are undergoing necessary repairs.

These are exactly the problems that have been discussed here and 1000 other places on the 'net with respect to the P320. The design of the P320 lends itself to the possibility of a discharge without the trigger being fully depressed under certain conditions. Those conditions include improper assembly, tolerance stacking, defective parts, and debris in the mechanism. Holster fit is an additional factor that may contribute. While these circumstances are rare, they are clearly non-zero, and there is plenty of video evidence of that.

Until this is resolved, I have zero interest in being in proximity to any P320 with a loaded chamber. I applaud any range, or training organization that prohibits the P320 until Sig provides a solution to the problem that involves something other than denial. Doing so is the rational and necessary response to protect their customers and clientele.
 
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