Banned Firearm

[Equus]

Like I said, fanatic.

 

[Equus]

I think the ultimate question for every 320 owner should be this: what if you're wrong?

What if, one day, your pistol has an un commanded discharge? What if you injure or kill someone else? What if you suffer an injury that changes your life?

What if your life is changed forever by a mechanical malfunction of a pistol that has a demonstrated pattern of concern?

Are you personally prepared to defend your choices if those choices result in the accidental injury or death of someone?

I'm not talking about a handling mishap or human error or a miss in an exceedingly rare CCW situation, I am talking about you doing everything right and still suffering an uncommanded discharge. I am certain that everyone of you with a 320 has an excellent Holster specifically designed in approved by Sig for the purpose of carrying your 320, that you've left it totally stock and have not used any parts of the vast approved ecosystem, and that you are dutiful And meticulous about properly cleaning and reassembling your weapon.

Will the knowledge that you did everything right be enough to justify your choice of carrying a 320 to yourself if a tragedy happens as a result of an uncommanded discharge? Will it be enough to keep you out of prison? Or will your choice of armament be the factor that makes a prosecutor's case for negligent homicide?

Is it worth your grandkids safety to carry a 320 around them? Or is that surprise hug ** just enough** to slide that sear face off of the striker foot?

It's not my place to tell you what to carry. It is ultimately your decision as to what to carry, but there is a consequence for that. You have to live with the potential consequences of that. Is it really worth it to choose a questionable pistol when there are so many other options available that do the same thing without safety concerns like those that cloud the 320?

In a perfect world, I don't think it's the law's place either - but the reason we end up with dumb things like gun rosters is because people insist on carrying firearms of inferior/unsafe designs in unsafe manners that hurt people. You wouldn't carry a World War II Nambu squeeze-firing pistol as a CCW…why would you take a 320?

I think that it is reasonable to CCW a 320 if you are willing to accept the potential consequences of your decision. But, if you were my parents, you would never see your grandchildren with a 320 in your Holster or on your person, because kids are worth more than Guns.

Because Sig told them it's perfectly safe. And someone trying to sell you something would never lie to you….right

 

[Oldsalt66]

Some folks have appeared in court and examinations before trial during the discovery process as a highly compensated and acknowledged technical expert to provide evidentiary testimony regarding important cases involving engineering and product liability liability matters.

And other folks hold court on internet message boards and talk down to them.

 

[Equus]

Some folks have appeared in court and examinations before trial during the discovery process as a highly compensated and acknowledged technical expert to provide evidentiary testimony regarding important cases involving engineering and product liability liability matters.

And other folks hold court on internet message boards and talk down to them.

And Suk Sauer has lost 3 in a row now.

 

[Oldsalt66]

Like I said, fanatic.

The only striker fired handguns I own are built by Smith & Wesson.

Nice try at ad hominem though; just kidding it was foolish.

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

The only striker fired handguns I own are built by Smith & Wesson.

Nice try at ad hominem though; just kidding.

So you don't even own the gun being discussed, yet you discount the validity of the comments those of us who do own not only it but a sizable portion of the competing striker fired handguns?

Which other striker fired handguns are having UDs in holsters and/or are being alledged to fire uncommanded? Why are holster manufacturers only choosing to unfairly pick on the P320? Why are careless gun handlers only choosing the P320 and no other pistol with which to demonstrate their carelessness? When does repetition of a single common denominator start to indicate a trend?

 

[Rocketmedic40]

The fact that people would stake the lives of other people on cost-cut mechanical design, variable quality of parts and assemblies of wildly variable consistency remains mind-boggling to me. We are not talking about something that is mass produced and issued in extremis for want of a better option; we're talking about a handgun that is manufactured for pennies on the dollar and sold at a premium based on branding. Objectively speaking, 320 is probably only worth about $200, it's functionally around the same build quality as a Taurus or a Stoeger or a Smith and Wesson. But because people have invested a lot of money in that brand name, They defend it as an extension of their own ego. Wild to watch.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Ray Charles should be able to hit a 10X from only 7 yards..........................

LOL!!.... .... I knew I would get a laugh out of my 7 yard bullseye comment. You guys are fun.

 

[LVSteve]

Ray Charles should be able to hit a 10X from only 7 yards..........................

There speaks a man who has never observed people doing their CCW qualifying shoot here in NV.

 

[Rust E. Badge]

My experience is the complete opposite....... All of my agencies UIDs were with striker fired pistols.

We also experienced UD's with striker fired (Glock's only, never with our S&W's) but hammer-fired without decockers was our disaster. And yet I can't recall an UD when we were issued revolvers (yes, I'm old enough to have carried a revolver).

 

[Oldsalt66]

So you don't even own the gun being discussed, yet you discount the validity of the comments those of us who do own not only it but a sizable portion of the competing striker fired handguns?

Which other striker fired handguns are having UDs in holsters and/or are being alledged to fire uncommanded? Why are holster manufacturers only choosing to unfairly pick on the P320? Why are careless gun handlers only choosing the P320 and no other pistol with which to demonstrate their carelessness? When does repetition of a single common denominator start to indicate a trend?

No one who's actually any sort of engineer created that ridiculous word salad/screed.

Thanks for summarizing your position and sharing with us lesser minds, the extraordinarily impressive, mature, and highly organized scientific thought processes through which you have arrived at that logically and technically infallible position from which you seek to curate the entire discussion.

 

[Rodan]

No one who's actually any sort of engineer created that screed.

Thanks for summarizing your position and sharing the impressive and mature thought processes through which you have arrived at that position with which you seek to curate the discussion.

Do you have any factual analysis of the problem to add? Or just more Sig talking points, snark, and more demeaning of others who have actually tried to look at this problem objectively?

Your commitment to denial is impressive, but a problem clearly exists with the P320. Though the actual cause is being debated, it's certainly more than just 'dumb shooters'.

The fact that the USAF put their guns back in service is far less interesting to me than the telling fact that they found almost 200 Sigs in their inventory that were mechanically out of spec...

 

[BE Mike]

I wouldn't belong to a gun club that banned a handgun based upon hearsay and is in wide use. Have they banned Colt 1903 pistols or series 70 or pre-series 70 1911's. Have they banned Ruger Blackhawks that were made prior to the safety bar and not modified? Have they banned original Colt Peacemakers? I could go on and on. What next, ban evil black rifles?

 

[Oldsalt66]

I wouldn't belong to a gun club that banned a handgun based upon hearsay and is in wide use. Have they banned Colt 1903 pistols or series 70 or pre-series 70 1911's. Have they banned Ruger Blackhawks that were made prior to the safety bar and not modified? Have they banned original Colt Peacemakers? I could go on and on. What next, ban evil black rifles?

What's next is a call for the California style government regulation of firearm design, and the requirement of individual "safety features" such as thumb safeties, magazine safties, loaded chamber indicators and hinged or tabbed triggers and such.

In fact, the current path of attack in the courts against the P320 design centers around its lack of any manual external safties (in the models without thumb safeties), rather than the plaintiffs' experts having been able to provide in evidence any acceptable documentation that the pistols are actually capable of firing a round on their own spontaneously.

Not a single technical expert acting on behalf of any of the plaintiffs has been successful in identifying any point of design or mechanical failure that could possibly result in the spontaneous discharge of a round.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Do you have any factual analysis of the problem to add? Or just more Sig talking points, snark, and more demeaning of others who have actually tried to look at this problem objectively?

Your commitment to denial is impressive, but a problem clearly exists with the P320. Though the actual cause is being debated, it's certainly more than just 'dumb shooters'.

The fact that the USAF put their guns back in service is far less interesting to me than the telling fact that they found almost 200 Sigs in their inventory that were mechanically out of spec...

Especially when you factor in just how minor a side arm is to daily military operations, and how many high-powered careers would be somewhat questioned by a very negative finding.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

What's next is a call for the California style government regulation of firearm design, and the requirement of individual "safety features" such as thumb safeties, magazine safties, loaded chamber indicators and hinged or tabbed triggers and such.

In fact, the current path of attack in the courts against the P320 design centers around its lack of any manual external safties (in the models without thumb safeties), rather than the plaintiffs' experts having been able to provide in evidence any acceptable documentation that the pistols are actually capable of firing a round on their own spontaneously.

Not a single technical expert acting on behalf of any of the plaintiffs has been successful in identifying any point of design or mechanical failure that could possibly result in the spontaneous discharge of a round.

Those regulations were given life by a spate of what we would call "uncommanded discharges" combined with a desire to limit the supply of cheap hand guns by the politicians of the time. Some random hyper liberal dude named Ronald Reagan saw that there was a higher proportion of cheap pistols in the hands of poor people, and that poor people tend to be people of color, and that the fewer pistols in the hands of people of color, the less likely those people of color would be to have "accidental discharges" or other shootings of pistols. Any other effects are purely accidental and should never be discussed.

In a just and rational world, gun owners would demand that the products we purchase and carry be designed designed and manufactured to a degree of quality where we wouldn't be having conversations about striker face engagement surface areas, and that world, Sigg Sauer would probably be held to more account For making a design of objectively inferior safety.

 

[Nightowl]

Shawn; Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

 

[Oldsalt66]

I thought the same thing. Any movement of the trigger backwards starts the disengagement of the internal safeties in my thought process!

Absolutely.

Which is why not even a single one of the legitimate and acknowledged technical experts in the employ of any of the plaintiffs' legal teams has even attempted to introduce that sort of clown show nonsense into evidence; the outhouse engineers posting their expertise throughout social media notwithstanding.

 

[bobsguns]

There speaks a man who has never observed people doing their CCW qualifying shoot here in NV.

You would be wrong, grasshopper.

I've seen people who could not hit the berm, much less the paper on the target holder, much less the X-ring.

But those people don't brag on 7-yard shooting, IMO......................

 

[Thaddeus Beauregard]

No one who's actually any sort of engineer created that ridiculous word salad/screed.

Thanks for summarizing your position and sharing with us lesser minds, the extraordinarily impressive, mature, and highly organized scientific thought processes through which you have arrived at that logically and technically infallible position from which you seek to curate the entire discussion.

This is my last comment to you on this thread because obviously you never intended to participate in good faith. You entered the thread with snarky condescension, so I responded to you in kind, albeit with quite a bit more restraint. I tried to discuss the topic at hand with an objective, mechanical based analysis devoid of insults or brand loyalty. It's been my observation that those who have nothing to add tend to be the first to resort to rudeness and put-downs, because that's all they have. I did not start down this road, you did.

You know absolutely nothing about me and obviously don't know anything about how the firearm being discussed works. By your own admission, you don't own a P320 or any of its direct competitors, probably have never detail stripped one, have never studied how its design compares to competing pistols. I own one and have worked on them many times. I own many of the pistols it competes with. I used to manufacture custom pistol parts and do custom machining on pistol slides in a previous job when micro red dot sights on pistols first became a popular thing. In that time, I detail stripped many pistols, installed aftermarket parts, installed parts of my own design, and had parts nitrided after I machined them. I'm a PE, a degreed mechanical engineer, and have worked on multiples of firearms of many types as a part time gunsmith for about 35 years. I enjoy building precision bolt action rifles. I have made many firearms parts in my job, working in the CNC machining industry. My opinion about a given topic may not always be correct, but it is always based on first hand, hands-on experience with the subject I'm discussing or I refrain from discussing it. There are certain mechanical principles of firearms that are common knowledge, are immutable and not subject to opinion; they just are. By me citing some simple mechanical facts about a gun, I'm not creating anything out of thin air. Anyone who takes the guns apart will observe exactly the same things if they understand what they're looking at. Every design of everything involves making a series of calculated tradeoffs of pros and cons.

Instead of providing any useful insight to the discussion, you resort to insults, just as you did from the beginning and in the other thread on this topic. I don't care if you believe anything I say or not, but you can at least respectfully disagree and discuss in good faith without the insults. Disagreeing with someone is fine, but you can do so without being insufferable.