REG 275

[DARE]

Reading Robert Vivas article in the Summer 2024 S&WCA Journal.
S&W .357 Registered Magnum: The First 500
He says, A question that pops up in the RM timeline is out of sequence registration numbers. Examples are RM274, RM275 and RM276. Despite these guns being ordered in mid-November 1935 when registration numbers were in the RM6XX range, they bear mid-June 1935 numbers.
He goes on to tell the story of RM276.
I just happen to know the story for RM275.

I own REG 657. Ordered a letter and five SWHF documents.
REG 657 was part of a two gun order. Ordered by Potchernick's in San Antonio, Texas on November 15, 1935. The order was assigned registration numbers 657 and 658. A letter from S&W to Potchernick's dated November 21, 1935 advised that registration number 658 was being changed to 275.
The reason for the change is that D. B. Wesson had assigned REG 658X13 on October 30, 1935. Ordered by Harper & Reynolds with book signed by D. B. Wesson for Jim Smith. X13 added to the registration number per a note by D. B. Wesson (no explanation given).
The S&W order form shows 658 crossed out and 275 written below it. It shipped November 27, 1935 to Potchernick's.

 

[1blindref]

I'm afraid that information is inncorect regarding Registered Magnum #274.
I am REG #274's current caretaker and have gotten documentation from the S&WHF on this gun. It was ordered June 24, 1935 and shipped July 24, 1935.
Numbers 275 and 276 may have been shipped in November, but #274 was not.

Letter

 

[RM Vivas]

Reading Robert Vivas article in the Summer 2024 S&WCA Journal.
S&W .357 Registered Magnum: The First 500
He says, A question that pops up in the RM timeline is out of sequence registration numbers. Examples are RM274, RM275 and RM276. Despite these guns being ordered in mid-November 1935 when registration numbers were in the RM6XX range, they bear mid-June 1935 numbers.
He goes on to tell the story of RM276.
I just happen to know the story for RM275.

I own REG 657. Ordered a letter and five SWHF documents.
REG 657 was part of a two gun order. Ordered by Potchernick's in San Antonio, Texas on November 15, 1935. The order was assigned registration numbers 657 and 658. A letter from S&W to Potchernick's dated November 21, 1935 advised that registration number 658 was being changed to 275.
The reason for the change is that D. B. Wesson had assigned REG 658X13 on October 30, 1935 for Harper & Reynolds in Los Angeles, California. X13 added to the registration number per a note by D. B. Wesson (no explanation given).
The S&W order form shows 658 crossed out and 275 written below it. It shipped November 27, 1935 to Potchernick's.

That X13 after the serial number stayed in my mind for quite a bit of time as I researched/wrote that.

The small block of guns (RM's 274, 275 and 276) were interesting and I spent some time trying to figure out why that particular block of RM's was open.

The only thing I could come up with was a theory based on a similar block of guns in the RM 46x range.

There was a shipment of three RM's to the Argentine government via Washington DC presumably for some sort of testing and evaluation. They were in three separate barrel lengths. Some time later the guns were returned to S&W and they were placed back into inventory. I know at least one went out to a state highway patrol for testing and evaluation and later came back to S&W and went to another purchaser. One of the guns, RM468 was returned by the Argentines and DBW placed it into his collections as a "...personal gun..." which he would lend out to folks looking to try a Magnum.

I theorize that the three guns in the out of sequence batch (274, 275 & 276) may have been from some similar sort of circumstance: a trio of guns sent to some person or agency for testing and evaluation, returned and perhaps because of damage or condition, were removed from inventory and the numbers then left open, to be filled later.

Just a theory!

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[DARE]

Nice gun, Rick. Does the 5 1/2" barrel have the same serial number as the gun?
I like it that you have two barrels. Bet there are only a few like that. Plus there were not many 5 1/2" barrels.

 

[mikepriwer]

Robert

When a gun is shipped via the shipping department, the entry for that serial number, in the shipping ledger, is filled in with the date and destination. If the gun is returned to the factory, and placed back in inventory, the shipping records are not altered or changed. If/when the gun is later resold, the new shipping data is squeezed onto the same line as the original shipment. A subsequent factory letter will list both shipments.

If the shipping clerk mis-reads the serial number, and enters the shipping information to the wrong entry in the ledger, then when the proper gun for that serial number is shipped, there will, again, be a double entry on that line.

I know this information to be factually correct, because two different guns of mine experienced these two occurences.

Regards, Mike

 

[RM Vivas]

Robert

When a gun is shipped via the shipping department, the entry for that serial number, in the shipping ledger, is filled in with the date and destination. If the gun is returned to the factory, and placed back in inventory, the shipping records are not altered or changed. If/when the gun is later resold, the new shipping data is squeezed onto the same line as the original shipment. A subsequent factory letter will list both shipments.

If the shipping clerk mis-reads the serial number, and enters the shipping information to the wrong entry in the ledger, then when the proper gun for that serial number is shipped, there will, again, be a double entry on that line.

I know this information to be factually correct, because two different guns of mine experienced these two occurences.

Regards, Mike

One of the things I've wondered about in the Magnums is what happens when a gun is given a new certificate?

For example: RMxyz goes out the door to John Smith with an 8.75" barrel. John Smith gets the gun, keeps it for a year and sells it to Joe Blow on the second hand market. Joe Blow, sends the gun back to S&W and requests a 4 inch barrel. He also sends back John Smiths reg cert and asks for a new one in his name and reflecting the new barrel length and this is done.

Fast forward 70 years and a collector snags the gun and certificate at auction. He figures the gun is kosher because it natches the cert and he sends for a letter. Will the letter reflect only the original dat or will it have the new data? If it has the new data, will it mention the prev owner/config?

I came across more than a few people writing in for new certs after buying their gun on the used gun market. Quite a number requested barrel changes; mostly cops who bought someones target gun and wanted it shortened for duty use.

Best
RM Vivas

 

[mikepriwer]

Robert

My gut feeling is that the factory would not change the certificates, once issued, because the certificate is supposed to correspond to the original specifications for building the gun. It's the reference document for knowing how the gun was shipped. I would think that altering it would be a no-no.

Regards. Mike Priwer

 

[DARE]

Mike,
Definitely have seen threads talking about guns changing hands and certificates being reissued in different names.

 

[1blindref]

Nice gun, Rick. Does the 5 1/2" barrel have the same serial number as the gun?
I like it that you have two barrels. Bet there are only a few like that. Plus there were not many 5 1/2" barrels.

The 5.5" barrrel is numbered to the gun with a diamond so who knows when that barrel was ordered. It's interesting to me that S&W would go through the trouble of numbering the spare barrel to the gun, but I guess times were very different back then.

Sorry for any thread drift.

Please excuse the low quality pictures. I really need to redo this guns photo shoot.

 

[rct269]

Some of these first year guns tell a story all their own!

My last RM was #643, part of a three gun order from one man (643/644/645)----the back and forth correspondence suggesting the other two were to be Christmas presents.

The order was placed through a local dealer, via his distributor, to S&W. The distributor price was a punitive $47---leaving a whopping $13 to be shared by the distributor and the retailer for each gun---a losing proposition for both right from the get-go---suggesting S&W preferred to sell these guns direct to the consumer ------and keep the entire $60 for themselves---$60 for a gun that cost them $17 to make. But hey, times were tough!!

That $47 distributor price didn't last too long, coming down to $38-$39 before the year was out------no doubt as a result of fussing, fuming, and threats made by the distributors.

The good news is everybody came away happy in the end, and they all lived happily ever after!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[DARE]

1blindref and I both have letters from S&W regarding orders for Registered Magnums.
Both letters end,

Very truly yours,

SMITH & WESSON, INC.


Sales Department.

My guess is that the D. off to the left of Sales Department. means the letter was typed by D. B. Wesson.

 

[Truckman]

My guess is that the D. off to the left means the letter was typed by D. B. Wesson

Common practice for business letters dictates that the letter writer's initials are capitalized followed by a semi-colon then the typist's initials in lower case......Ben

 

[kwill1911]

I would be quite surprised to see a "new" certificate once the original gun got one. The buyer had to return a card in the box to S&W and specify how he wanted his name, city and state to appear. The certificates came out of pre-printed book with the numbers already on them--much like a checkbook. There would be no easy way to get another certificate with the same number on it.

It irritates some people so say this but this was D.B. Wesson's way of assuring law enforcement that they would know where these guns went. Remember that this was during the gangster era and Thompson had suffered reputational damage from the SMG being used by criminals. D.B. Wesson didn't want the Magnum revolver to suffer the same fate. There were many sensational and irrational news articles when the revolver came out that it was too powerful for "ordinary" citizens to own. Some wanted it to be included in the NFA like a silencer or machine gun.

The registration effort was largely unsuccessful since less than 20% of the owners ever sent the card back to get the certificate.

 

[Doc44]

While looking for documents on RMs, I have found requests for new certificates after a revolver was sold by the original owner. S&W's replies indicate a new certificate would be issued.

I also believe the certificate was a lifetime guarantee and had nothing to do with registration by the company.

Bill

 

[RM Vivas]

While looking for documents on RMs, I have found requests for new certificates after a revolver was sold by the original owner. S&W's replies indicate a new certificate would be issued.

I also believe the certificate was a lifetime guarantee and had nothing to do with registration by the company.

Bill

This.

I went through several thousand pages of documents to get the details of the First 500 but I also read well into the RM upper range and I can tell you with dead certainty that they would re-issue a certificate to a new owner.

Typically S&W would require the original certificate be returned before issuing a new one. I came across many instances of letters from Original Purchadrrs saying something like “I sold my Magnum #xxx to joe blow of 123 Main Street city state; enclosed is my registration cert., please send a new one to joe blow at address provided…”

I’ve seen letters where S&W makes it clear that no new cert would go out until old one was returned. I also found a few instances where S&W would break this rule.

Best,
RM Vivas

 

[RM Vivas]

I'm afraid that information is inncorect regarding Registered Magnum #274.
I am REG #274's current caretaker and have gotten documentation from the S&WHF on this gun. It was ordered June 24, 1935 and shipped July 24, 1935.
Numbers 275 and 276 may have been shipped in November, but #274 was not.

Letter

That is, unfortunately, a typo on my part for which I take full responsibility.

There was a batch of three guns that had June numbers but November ship dates:

275 TX 11/15/1935 6.500" Magna odd date, RM# lined out (658) replaced with 275

276 NJ 11/16/1935 6.500" Attached odd date, RM# lined out (660) replaced with 276;letter from DBW explaining out of sequence numbering; Buyer executive for Bancamerica-Blair, Pres. Of Blair & Co. brokerage

277 (46545) IL 11/8/1935 6.500" Magna odd date, RM# lined out (640) replaced with 277;letter from Sales Dept. explaining out of sequence numbering; Has RM103; President Zenith Radio

Sorry about that. Please understand that when you're going through so many records late at night, a little error is bound to creep in.

Best,
RM Vivas