Masters of The Air

[6518John]

I finished the series last night and thought it was excellent. I would strongly recommend it. One thing has bothered me though from the first combat scenes.

How did all the gunners on the B-17’s keep from having friendly fire accidents when attacked by German fighters? Those B-17’s flew in close formations—I have seen that from historical photographs, news-reels, etc., not just the movie—and the German fighters would be flying in to attack in every direction under the sun. How did our own boys keep from hitting other Fortresses flying in formation when feverishly trying to shoot down the German fighters?

 

[Alk8944]

Chances are they didn't! It would be difficult to differentiate damage from different weapons or identify the exact source. I would assume some "friendly fire" damage from other aircraft within the formation was expected!

 

[ameridaddy]

My father in law was a B-17 waist gunner, and when I asked him how they avoided shooting their own aircraft or others in the tight formations, he said there was occasional damage and casualties from "friendly" fire from other bombers, but it was rare. He said aircraft recognition and fire discipline was stressed in gunnery school, so there was very little wild shooting, and that there was no time for long bursts, as a fighter would flash through his field of fire in just a second or two, and even with a warning over the intercom that it was coming, it was all he could do to cut loose a few rounds before it flashed by and was gone. He said that in all his missions, maybe he might have hit one fighter. I asked him how gunners kept from shooting their own plane when tracking a fighter with a burst. He said the turrets had interrupters to keep from shooting their own plane, but waist gunners occasionally shot their own horizontal stabilizers.
They had far more damage from enemy fighters and most of all, FLAK (Fliegerabwehrkanone). He described the black FLAK bursts as "thick enough to get out and walk on" and the clatter of the shrapnel from them hitting his plane as "sounded like you threw tire chains into a galvanized wash tub."

 

[Rudi]

Once at a fly in, there was a B 17 there. An "old" guy was looking intently at the ball turret. He had been a ball turret gunner. He said he got to shoot "at" an Me 262. The top turret called him to be ready. He selected high speed and angled down. As it passed he got off some rounds at it. Don't know what speed they could do in a power dive. Those guys had big brass ones. To do 25 missions must have been Hell.

 

[rockquarry]

Once at a fly in, there was a B 17 there. An "old" guy was looking intently at the ball turret. He had been a ball turret gunner. He said he got to shoot "at" an Me 262. The top turret called him to be ready. He selected high speed and angled down. As it passed he got off some rounds at it. Don't know what speed they could do in a power dive. Those guys had big brass ones. To do 25 missions must have been Hell.

The requirement originally was fifty missions. This was changed to twenty-five as casualities increased, but I don't know the date of the change. My Father was a waist gunner in the first US group (97th Bomb Group) to bomb European targets in August, 1942 from their base at Polebrook, England. As the most "experienced" combat group, they were sent to North Africa in November, 1942. I have a copy of my Dad's fifty missions, including targets and dates. After completion, he was sent back to the US in July, 1943.

 

[fordson]

I believe the missions requirements changed several times during the war from 50, to 25, then up to 30 and then 35. The movie “12 O’Clock High” still remains one of the best, if not The Best, representation of the European air war. My 2c….

 

[Greyman50]

Another perfect example of FICTION V Facts and Reality. Find and read several of the 100’s of books written by Aircrews in WWII. These books go into detail regarding training of All aspects of training and Actual use in combat. Training A/C gunners involved many types of weapons from shotguns to truck mounted turrets. As posted above turrets had “ blocks” built in that stopped gunners from shooting their A/C and others.

 

[erikpolcrack]

I read somewhere the bombers flew in a "box" (I believe that was the term) formation that was designed to maximize mutual protection while minimizing friendly fire damage through precise horizontal and vertical dispersion. It also allowed them to drop their bombs without hitting the friendlies below them. That was the theory anyway. Must have worked at least to a certain degree, because I have seen German diagrams describing it for their fighter pilots to study and be shown how best to counter it.

 

[fordson]

For those interested in the European air war (USAAF involvement), recommend these books in the photo. I’m too lazy to type each books info.

 

[WR Moore]

Black Thursday is sobering reading. IIRC, 8th Air Force lost 600 men in one day. Probably not counting those casualties that made it back to base (been decades). I'm not sure if that's the book with pictures of some B17s that made it back despite horrendous damage.

 

[sjmjax]

Sort of related topic:
My father served on destroyers and Destroyer escorts during World War Two. Machinists mate. One of his first responsibilities was to fit all AA guns with cams and travel stops to prevent gunners from shooting up their own ship due to target fixation.

 

[CajunBass]

For those interested in the European air war (USAAF involvement), recommend these books in the photo. I’m too lazy to type each books info.

I've read all of those, some going all the way back to high school. There is a copy of "Black Thursday" on my dresser right now.

Another I read in elementary school was "Great American Fighter Pilots of World War II." Haven't seen a copy of that one since.

 

[jimmyj]

What TV channel is this series shown ?

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Looks like Apple or a no go.
Seems like no matter many streamers you pay for, the show you want to watch is on another one!

Masters of the Air is an Apple Original series that can only be streamed through Apple TV+. A monthly subscription to will cost as little as $9.99/month (the new price from the previous $6.99/month rate).

 

[Delta Expatriate]

I recommend "Masters of the Air" a thick softcover book by Donald Miller, I think (?). I picked it up at Costco back in the spring. It covers all aspects of the strategic bombing campaign against Germany in WWII. I would like to see the series, but I am not ready to subscribe to AppleTV.

I think the Luftwaffe recognized the that B-17 most vulnerable point was the nose, and liked to attack head-on. This eventually led to the "chin" turret on B-17G (?). I also think that there were more losses due to flak than enemy fighters (?).

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

On a speaking tour RAF hero Guy Gibson was asked how many times he had been over Germany. He replied:
"175 times"
The Combat Box was 8 planes, 3 across front and back, 3 on each side.

 

[fordson]

I've read all of those, some going all the way back to high school. There is a copy of "Black Thursday" on my dresser right now.

Another I read in elementary school was "Great American Fighter Pilots of World War II." Haven't seen a copy of that one since.

Yeah, that one I hadn’t seen either. But I do have these (photo again). Pretty interesting……

 

[Greyman50]

If you can find “Fall of Fortress” , very sobering first hand account. There are 100’s of books covering USAAF and would post those I have but all packed up. Years ago when our group displayed our collections at air shows we met and talked to 100’s of USAAF Veterans. Wish we had taped the talks.

 

[Claymore33]

My Grand father was in 497th BOMB GROUP B-29s under Gen Curtis LeMay on Saipan. He said that the big raids on major cities would have 100 B-29s.
They would routinely lose 10% of aircraft or 100-110 men per day.

 

[Kevin J.]

Another good show is the Bloody 100th Bomb Group. This group was the first to do daylight raids and suffered the heaviest causalities, thus the name.

The 'Bloody 100th' Bomb Group

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v156yvY0vbg[/ame]

Another interesting fact is.."the Eighth suffered about half of the U.S. Army Air Force's casualties (47,483 out of 115,332), including more than 26,000 dead. The Eighth's brave men earned 17 Medals of Honor, 220 Distinguished Service Crosses, and 442,000 Air Medals".

Also.."By the end of the war, the Eighth Air Force would have more fatal casualties—26,000—than the entire United States Marine Corps. Seventy-seven percent of the Americans who flew against the Reich before D-Day would wind up as casualties."

My uncle was with the 782 Field artillery D-Day plus 1. To the day he died he donated to the the 8th Air Force museum as thank you to all they did to destroy the nazi's war machine before they had to invade Normandy.