Pocket 9 vs .380?

Having had friends at Quantico while "those standards" were being developed, the definition of "good performance" was not entirely empirical. I had copies of some internal memos that demonstrated a ....less than scientific approach. I'm really sorry I didn't save my copy of one memo by Urey Patrick. But, the clutter got too deep.

OTOH, the test stages are most carefully designed and an outstanding accomplishment. A couple of which were driven by over reliance on side arms, but random chance (and/or really poor planning) can make them applicable.
 
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Because of their tattle tale shape and my pockets just aren't really big, I find semiautos bigger than an LCP to be slow out of the pocket and probably a mental thing but I feel they give it away that you have a gun in your pocket.
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The general rule is to dress around the gun. This is going to vary depending on your physique, including size; your attire, including if you are in dress clothes or not. I rarely wear a suit or dress trousers. Seriously, I think it has been several years. Even then, I could easily carry a Glock 33 in a quality pocket holster. The number of people who have no clue is overwhelming. I had a client's command officer give me some lip about being unarmed, and boy was he surprised.

Almost all of the time I wear Duluth flex fire hose trousers. The G33 disappears. Sometimes I use the holster about which I wrote a few months ago with a 945-1 compact; works great. Even people who were pretty sure I am armed had no specific clue. I am hoping that the new holster when it arrives will allow me to carry my custom G17.
 
The Bodyguard only has a 2.75" barrel. The terrible ballistic results from LuckyGunner's testing is out of a Glock 42 with a 3.25" barrel aka a half of an inch longer than the Bodyguard. Needless to say, 380 ACP out of the Bodyguard will be even worse than the numbers below.

Then there's the increased recurring cost to shoot 380 ACP.

 
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The Bodyguard only has a 2.75" barrel. The terrible ballistic results from LuckyGunner's testing is out of a Glock 42 with a 3.25" barrel aka a half of an inch longer than the Bodyguard. Needless to say, 380 ACP out of the Bodyguard will be even worse than the numbers below.

Then there's the increased recurring cost to shoot 380 ACP.


Yes sir. As noted above .380 ACP takes a disproportionately large hit in velocity in a short barrel compared to a 9mm where the velocity loss per inch is much less.

Way too many shooters fail to consider this when selecting a concealed carry .380 ACP.

The results posted are consistent with my own gel testing where I’ve found the Sig 90 gr V-crown and the Hornady 90 gr FTX are the only two bullets that will reliably expand and give at least 12” penetration in a short barrel. Even then they both need to be loaded in the 900 fps range.

If you push them much faster they will begin to under penetrate, particularly the V crown. That can ironically cause a load that works well in a short barrel to slightly under penetrate in a 3.5”-3.9” barrel.

The Hornady 90 gr XTP gives good expansion and adequate penetration but only in a longer (3.5”-3.9”) barrel where it can achieve at least 1000 fps.

The Remington 102 gr golden saber also performs well in a 3.9” barrel but again needs a muzzle velocity approaching 1000 fps.

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One of the 3.5” or longer barrel .380 ACPs like the PPK/S, APK9S, AP9S, Bersa Thunder, RIA baby Rock, Browning Black Label 1911, or one of the Beretta Cougar derivatives are usually a much better choice when it comes to hollow points and terminal ballistics than shorter pistols like the Kimber Micro, SMC, Bodyguard, or Ruger LCP.

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The Beretta 80X is arguably an ideal choice in terms of ballistic efficiency, handling, and magazine capacity. But it’s also not a micro sized pistol coming close to compact 9mm pistols like the CZ75 and Compact Hi Power in size, although it is still thinner, lighter and easier to conceal.

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I watched a YT video of a guy testing 380 and 45 on a large dead hog. Much more realistic than water jugs and ballistic gel.

A 22lr will kill and generally penetrate up close and personal. Many traders in Texas dispatch wild hogs with 22lr. That in itself isn't a realistic depiction of real-world threats. In the real world, a threat generally isn't going to be still or in an enclosure butt necked with at close range and allow someone to get a head shot or a fatal shot.

As it pertains to 380 ACP, I see it as an "no other option or choice" gun. That is, it's something I'd carry if I had a medical condition or I absolutely couldn't (impossible) to conceal and carry a micro 9mm or even a 38 revolver., and deep concealment was a must. It, like 22lr, wouldn't be my choice for a dedicated every day EDC.
 
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Find a carry gun that you have no hesitation in gripping. Your hand should fit the stock like it is a favorite tool.
 
I do not recall what it is, but there is ONE .380 load approved for off-duty carry by LAPD. That's a clue. I would carry a quality centerfire platform of virtually any caliber in preference to a .22 due to more reliable ignition. A .22 magnum is likely to be a workable choice; QC tends to be better.

If one goes through the pro/cons of the .380 vs. 9mm, 9mm will come out ahead on most assessments. It is easier to get a decent performing 9mm load, and probably cheaper. The .380 is a niche platform to me. I have one, and carried it as the least bad option after my bypass. The medical folks had strongly recommended no shooting for at least 3 months after due to the sternal split. I confirmed 4 months after that this was good advice. On the other hand, there was no way on earth I was going unarmed, so the .380 it was. Circumstances dictate tactics.
 
A 22lr will kill and generally penetrate up close and personal. Many traders in Texas dispatch wild hogs with 22lr. That in itself isn't a realistic depiction of real-world threats. In the real world, a threat generally isn't going to be still or in an enclosure butt necked with at close range and allow someone to get a head shot or a fatal shot.

As it pertains to 380 ACP, I see it as an "no other option or choice" gun. That is, it's something I'd carry if I had a medical condition or I absolutely couldn't (impossible) to conceal and carry a micro 9mm or even a 38 revolver., and deep concealment was a must. It, like 22lr, wouldn't be my choice for a dedicated every day EDC.

I started as a LEO in 1969. Most of the fatalities from shootings that I saw in the early part of my career came from the .22 long rifle and .25 calibers because that's what most criminals had back then, cheap .22 and .25 caliber Saturday Night Specials. I saw more RG brand revolvers than anything else. Most of the importation of cheap .22 or .25 pistols and revolvers has been banned since then and the bad guys graduated to larger calibers and most often higher capacity mags. This is probably one of the reasons mass shootings have more casualties than before.
 
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Kind regards to all participants here in another caliber wars thread!
Around and around it goes, and it never stops. This is fine with me.

I could simplify all of this from a fighting perspective, but instead let me suggest that if you accept the idea behind the FBI ballistic gel standards, but still want to carry a tiny .380, here is the last one of series of videos you might enjoy:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts&t=630s[/ame]

If however, you believe that overpenetration is a myth, you needn't bother.
If you believe that the .45ACP is God's holy, inspired caliber, why are you still reading this thread?
I am interested in HOW people get to their positions.
What evidence do they accept?
What evidence do they reject and why?
How do people get entrenched in a position and why does it take so much to move them off of it? People will adopt a position after hearing a couple or three anecdotes but then remain firm against all possible evidence to the contrary. Very interesting.

Best to ALL and Thanks!
BrianD
 
I've sworn off .380 in pocket pistols due to low reliability. I've owned two .380s - an LCP and a Sig P238. The frequency of malfunction was much greater than any 9mm microcompact I've ever owned.

Even if it's user error, I'll go with 9mm over 380. My opinion (that's all it is) is that reliability trumps capacity, or "stopping power".
 
I've sworn off .380 in pocket pistols due to low reliability. I've owned two .380s - an LCP and a Sig P238. The frequency of malfunction was much greater than any 9mm microcompact I've ever owned.

Even if it's user error, I'll go with 9mm over 380. My opinion (that's all it is) is that reliability trumps capacity, or "stopping power".

That's been my experience as well. I've been seduced by 380s in the past but have always been a little disappointed.

I'll stick with Smith J-frames for pocket carry. Despite their obvious limitations, they can be counted on and work great our of a pocket.

For something carried on a belt, there are many smaller, reliable 9mms that suite that role.

Maybe the newest generation 380s, like the Bodyguard 2.0 have the reliability thing sorted out, but I'll take a wait and see.
 
I've sworn off .380 in pocket pistols due to low reliability. I've owned two .380s - an LCP and a Sig P238. The frequency of malfunction was much greater than any 9mm microcompact I've ever owned.

Even if it's user error, I'll go with 9mm over 380. My opinion (that 's all it is) is that reliability trumps capacity, or "stopping power".
This is my experience as well. The tiny pistols in either .380 or 9mm also to some degree, there are many things that can go wrong.

For me it is the problem of limp wristing. Not that my wrist is limp, just that it must always be very firm and tight. I like the Glock 42. I really do, but often the first reminder that I am not using the "Glock hold" is the first time it jams.

Kind Regards,
BrianD
 
Don't try to swim upstream. Just get a Sig P365 in 9mm. It shoots like a bigger gun, and felt recoil is like a bigger gun. I shoot it very well and think others do too! I pocket carry mine, year around, in a Vedder plastic Pocket Locker holster.
 
This is my experience as well. The tiny pistols in either .380 or 9mm also to some degree, there are many things that can go wrong.

For me it is the problem of limp wristing. Not that my wrist is limp, just that it must always be very firm and tight. I like the Glock 42. I really do, but often the first reminder that I am not using the "Glock hold" is the first time it jams.

Kind Regards,
BrianD

I have had a Glock 42, my first and only .380 caliber pistol, for about a year and a half. I have shot everything from factory hollow-point to home cast lead bullet ammo in it and I have not had a singe malfunction.
 
I'm retired now. I bought a bunch of Wrangler Flex Jeans on Amazon a few years back. Stretchable waistband and deep front pockets. I have a Springfield Hellcat that pretty much lives in the front pocket in either a DeSantis or Alabama Holster.

I consider my Wrangler Flex jeans and Kore ratchet belt to be essential components of my concealed carry equipment.
 
.380s tend to need hotter ammo to function well. My break-in period with the G42 was longer than I liked, in part because of similar issues. It is fine now, but I learned about the hotter ammo issue in that endeavor.
 
I have had a Glock 42, my first and only .380 caliber pistol, for about a year and a half. I have shot everything from factory hollow-point to home cast lead bullet ammo in it and I have not had a singe malfunction.

You got a good one then. 👍

Mine was pretty good but not as reliable as it's bigger brothers.
 
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