44 Double Action 1884

[shown50]

I’ve been wanting to get into the larger frame top breaks recently without spending a fortune. I picked up a 44 Russian Double Action in nickel with a 5” barrel. The serial number is 2664. It shipped 3/8/1884 to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co. in Chicago(one of the largest hardware stores in the US, started the True Value brand).

I don’t think the pearls are original to the gun, although they do look old and have had a repaired corner that looks like it was done a long time ago. They feel like real pearl comparing them to my other post 1900 MOP guns.
I generally stay away from pre-medallion MOP since I don’t know enough about them to tell if they are factory without a letter.

I’m needing a mainspring for the gun and I know this is a tall order since no one is really reproducing parts for these. I found an older post and emailed the listed addresses but some of them weren’t active emails anymore. I’m hoping someone on the forum has a spare mainspring or can point me in the right direction.

Does anyone know of another model(newer or different brand)that uses the same mainspring? Are there any gunsmith that can make a new mainspring or is this something a person with some time could make themselves?
I’ve got the original mainspring being shipped to me(seller forgot to include it)and should have it in a couple days to see what I’m working with.

I had seen some posts with production logs for these guns, Are those still available after Mr. Cornett passed away? I know he was the authority on these models and is sorely missed in the community.

Thanks for any help.

 

[shown50]

I pulled the stocks off and didn’t find a serial number but I did find a couple of names and initials inside. It’s hard to see in the pictures but it looks like A. James/ ALJ on the right panel and atleast 3 names on the left. It’s hard to read the first name I think it’s Leon Potts. Beneath that is C. Evans and finally what seems like J or Geon Potts or Leon Potts again.

 

[mrcvs]

The fit of the top of the MOP stocks at the interface with the frame tells me the MOP stocks are not original.

 

[mmaher94087]

The mainspring is unique to the 44 DA frame. I spent the better part of two years searching before I got mine. The spring that came with the revolver was "flying wire", i.e., the 'X' wires from the wings of a biplane.

 

[shown50]

The mainspring is unique to the 44 DA frame. I spent the better part of two years searching before I got mine. The spring that came with the revolver was "flying wire", i.e., the 'X' wires from the wings of a biplane.

Thanks for the reply, the seller is mailing me the broken original spring. I’m hoping once it’s in hand I can figure out a replacement. I’m missing the strain screw as well, does anything else interchange with that?

 

[glowe]

. . . I picked up a 44 Russian Double Action in nickel with a 5” barrel. The serial number is 2664. It shipped 3/8/1884 to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co. in Chicago(one of the largest hardware stores in the US, started the True Value brand) . . .

I had seen some posts with production logs for these guns, Are those still available after Mr. Cornett passed away? I know he was the authority on these models and is sorely missed in the community.

The big clue about the originality of MOP stocks is to measure the thickness of the stocks and compare them to a set of walnuts. If the same thickness, they would usually be factory since distributor installed MOP is almost always thin. Of course there were no medallions in 1884, but factory fit was always perfect and distributor fit was not.

One question? If you have detailed information about ship date and destination, where did you obtain it without a letter??

lastly, I also wonder what happened to Ed Coronet's factory records? It would be a shame to lose that resource forever.

 

[shown50]

The big clue about the originality of MOP stocks is to measure the thickness of the stocks and compare them to a set of walnuts. If the same thickness, they would usually be factory since distributor installed MOP is almost always thin. Of course there were no medallions in 1884, but factory fit was always perfect and distributor fit was not.

One question? If you have detailed information about ship date and destination, where did you obtain it without a letter??

lastly, I also wonder what happened to Ed Coronet's factory records? It would be a shame to lose that resource forever.

Thanks for the reply, I was hoping you’d chime in! I’ll measure the thickness with a set of calipers when I get home from work. They’re definitely not thin like some of the 1950s-1960s pairs I’ve held in the past.

I emailed Michael Helms to ask if the factory shipping records had the stocks listed so I could replace the MOP with with a set of period correct or 1902 M&P stocks. He said it shipped to Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co, 3/8/1884 but didn’t list what stocks shipped on it.

I’m assuming it had black hard rubber stocks that were replaced at some point in the past by one of the people who put their name on the inside of the MOP stocks.

I was researching 44 DAs before I bought the gun and found all the post from Mr. Cornett with production logs on these models. I didn’t know at the time that he had passed away. That’s what prompted me to email Mr. Helms.

I’ve looked around for replacement mainsprings and haven’t had any luck, I think my best bet will be to take a newer models mainspring that’s close in size and make it fit. I’ve read model 10 is close, a lot of the older post list gunsmith or parts houses but they’re closed now.

 

[mmaher94087]

I believe Ed's records are now in the possession of his son Ken. Ken is a member of the SWCA. I don't have any contact info.

 

[shown50]

I believe Ed's records are now in the possession of his son Ken. Ken is a member of the SWCA. I don't have any contact info.

Thanks, I just joined the SWCA and SWHF last week so I’m not familiar if those list a way to contact other members.

 

[Exmilcop]

I don't know if the mainspring from the NM#3 Uberti or Pietta repro would work and maybe the strain screw as well, but you may wish to check it out. If they're not exact replacements, maybe they can be adapted/altered to suit? I'm attaching the part sheet for your perusal. Good luck to you. I had to get the toothed ejector/extractor cam for my NM#3. Fortunately, the guys on this forum put me on to chap from Gunbroker who made repros of the part I needed and with some tweaking and swearing, I got it to work.

 

[shown50]

I don't know if the mainspring from the NM#3 Uberti or Pietta repro would work and maybe the strain screw as well, but you may wish to check it out. If they're not exact replacements, maybe they can be adapted/altered to suit? I'm attaching the part sheet for your perusal. Good luck to you. I had to get the toothed ejector/extractor cam for my NM#3. Fortunately, the guys on this forum put me on to chap from Gunbroker who made repros of the part I needed and with some tweaking and swearing, I got it to work.

Thank you, I read a new model 3 is close to the same as a DA 44 so I reached out to a couple of the reproduction makers and heard back from Taylor’s & Co. They don’t make a new model 3 but recommended a 32 DA mainspring off of Numrich. I’m just assuming the 32 and 38 would be much smaller than a 44 and wouldn’t fit.

 

[glowe]

Thank you, I read a new model 3 is close to the same as a DA 44 so I reached out to a couple of the reproduction makers and heard back from Taylor’s & Co. They don’t make a new model 3 but recommended a 32 DA mainspring off of Numrich. I’m just assuming the 32 and 38 would be much smaller than a 44 and wouldn’t fit.

Italian gunmakers do not make a 44DA reproduction, only 44 Russian, Model 3 American, and 45 Schofield. Doubt that any of those or a NM3 would fit since they are larger frame guns. Since the butt-frame is almost identical to a round-butt K frame, you might try one of those mainsprings. Readily available and cheap. Mainsprings can be altered if close, just keep the temperature low so they do not lose temper. A K frame round-butt stock measures about .42" thick at the widest point.

 

[shown50]

Italian gunmakers do not make a 44DA reproduction, only 44 Russian, Model 3 American, and 45 Schofield. Doubt that any of those or a NM3 would fit since they are larger frame guns. Since the butt-frame is almost identical to a round-butt K frame, you might try one of those mainsprings. Readily available and cheap. Mainsprings can be altered if close, just keep the temperature low so they do not lose temper. A K frame round-butt stock measures about .42" thick at the widest point.

Thanks I’ll order one and see how it works, any idea what model strain screw interchanges? If nothing interchanges do you happen to know the screw size and pitch?

 

[mmaher94087]

I believe you will be disappointed with any of the reproduction mainsprings. They are too short as the reproes now have a hammer block between the hammer and frame and that moved the hammer pivot towards the grip frame necessitating the shorter mainspring. The Single Action, NM #3 frame is different although they are both called a New Model #3. That only designated a larger frame than the .38 which was the #2 frame.

 

[mmaher94087]

"I’m just assuming the 32 and 38 would be much smaller than a 44 and wouldn’t fit." Correct! "... any idea what model strain screw interchanges?" None as Smith & Wesson had proprietary screw threads. The threads approach the ancient Whitworth threads but are different. The strain screw will need to be an original or one needs to find a compentent smith that can reproduce the screw with the proper threads.

Strain Screw:
Diameter: .170"
Pitch: 36 TPI

Missing is the OA length, thread length, head Dia., head height depth and width of the screw slot.

 

[shown50]

I believe you will be disappointed with any of the reproduction mainsprings. They are too short as the reproes now have a hammer block between the hammer and frame and that moved the hammer pivot towards the grip frame necessitating the shorter mainspring. The Single Action, NM #3 frame is different although they are both called a New Model #3. That only designated a larger frame than the .38 which was the #2 frame.

Thanks for the reply, I didn’t think about that. Off the top of your head can you think of any model that would have a close mainspring? I’m going to try an early round butt mainspring like mentioned earlier. I should’ve bought the other 44 DA he had that was basically for parts but I thought close to $500 was too much for it(regretting that now lol).

Thanks for the screw specs that will make getting a reproduction made much easier if that’s what I have to do.

 

[shown50]

The big clue about the originality of MOP stocks is to measure the thickness of the stocks and compare them to a set of walnuts. If the same thickness, they would usually be factory since distributor installed MOP is almost always thin. Of course there were no medallions in 1884, but factory fit was always perfect and distributor fit was not.

One question? If you have detailed information about ship date and destination, where did you obtain it without a letter??

lastly, I also wonder what happened to Ed Coronet's factory records? It would be a shame to lose that resource forever.

I pulled the stocks and took some measurements but I don’t have anything to compare to. Here’s what I got.

Rough measurements
Right panel
Center of dish .2 in
Grip screw .383 in
Bottom .4

Left panel
Center of Dish .2 in
Grip screw .433 in
Bottom .433 in

 

[mmaher94087]

The stocks (grips) appear to be original to S&W. I'll defer to Gary (glowe) as I haven't notes on thickness of factorypearls.

 

[glowe]

I pulled the stocks and took some measurements but I don’t have anything to compare to. Here’s what I got.

Rough measurements
Right panel
Center of dish .2 in
Grip screw .383 in
Bottom .4

Left panel
Center of Dish .2 in
Grip screw .433 in
Bottom .433 in

Sounds like they could well be factory since they match the thickness of hard rubber stocks. I assume that there is no indication of a pencil number on the inside of the right stock?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

shown50, since you are now a member of the S&WCA, you can log into the SWCA forum. In the RESOURCES pages there, you will find a thread chart that gives the screws, studs and parameters for all S&W handguns from 1909 and before.


WRT the main spring, once you get the broken one and assuming you have all the pieces, you might want to call Jack First as they sometimes will make replica parts if they have an original part to work from.