38 Double Action Police Guns

[Boulder350]

Does anyone have a 38 double action police gun they want to share? Here is one marked for the Cleveland Police Department. What is interesting is that it has a Model of 91 barrel. I'm sure the barrel is original to the gun because I have one about 30 serial numbers away from this one with a Model of 91 barrel too, but is not marked CPD. This one is in the 4th model serial range. Is there any other info on these guns?

These are neat pieces of history.

 

[orbruce]

38 DA Police guns

This 2" 38 S&W Safety was shipped to Greensville Police, N.C in December of 1935.

B. Mower

 

[Boulder350]

That's a beautiful gun! Love the walnut grips and the silver medallions. You don't see those very often

 

[Piwo]

Regarding the Cleveland gun...I was in the CPD Ordnance unit in the early 2000s...I remember there was a drawer full of parts for those guns at the unit in the mid 90s. Cylinders, frames, grips and a lot of small parts. Why they still had them, I do not know. The parts all went to the melter or were otherwise disposed of. The issue gun prior to the top break was a Merwin and Hulbert 38. The M&H emptied all its rounds at once but had to be reloaded like a Colt single action...one at a time through a loading gate. I was told that the department went to the S&W top break after an officer was killled in the line of duty while trying to reload the M&H in a firefight. That is a nice piece of history that you have there.

 

[BMur]

Great info!

You may have stumbled onto something here!

The early police departments would often purchase contracts of guns from major distributors at a reduced price by volume.

It's possible that these examples with MODEL OF 91 barrels were police guns purchased in reduced price lots using leftover parts.

Very often property stamps were removed at the end of service and the guns were resold as used surplus to the general public. Or they were actually destroyed I believe only because they were not functional and therefore not sellable.

There are a lot of them out there right now that were police guns but the markings were removed!

You're very lucky to have found one with the markings still intact.

Here are a few photos of the earlier Merwin & Hulbert police issue guns for both Chicago PD and Cleveland PD. They were replaced as mentioned by the Smith & Wesson Model 3 top break DA because Smith and Wessons could be SPEED LOADED USING EARLY 5 round CARTRIDGE CLIPS.

Also I suspect your example is a Chicago PD gun not a Cleveland PD gun. The Cleveland PD guns were marked differently as seen in photo 1. Chicago in photo 2.

They purchased thousands of guns. I have seen and actually own a Cleveland PD Merwin & Hulbert with a property stamp in the 2000 range. I also have one that was crushed( destroyed) likely at the end of service. So surviving examples are somewhat rare today.

Also notice that the Merwin police issue all had the patented 1885 folding hammer. So we can date those to post 1885 issuance and also confirm the Smith & Wesson topbreak replaced them into the 1890's. Maybe even a little later!

I hope you plan on getting a letter for this gun! We need to know how many were shipped, when they were shipped, and which distributor received this gun. Likely a Chicago distributor.

What is the serial number range??

Murph

 

[orbruce]

38 DA police guns

Here is my Cleveland Police Dept S&W. I am sure this is a genuine Cleveland Police gun since, according to Roy, it was shipped in July of 1906 to a Cleveland, OH distributor.

B. Mower

 

[BMur]

Historical Letter

Thanks B.Mower,
This just supports the need for a Historical letter for these early contracts.
Especially when you have two police departments with the same designator. Both in this case CPD. Cleveland and Chicago.
By the 1890's most Police Departments were ordering guns directly from the factory so they are easily followed.
Example:
San Francisco
Chicago
New York
Hartford
Etc
All ordered the Colt NEW Police 32 directly from the factory in the late 1890's so they are easily proven. See photos
Distributor orders are not.
I really like the early photos. Sometimes a photo of an early police officer holding or supporting on a belt an issued firearm is a major breakthrough with research.

Murph

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

... The issue gun prior to the top break was a Merwin and Hulbert 38. The M&H emptied all its rounds at once but had to be reloaded like a Colt single action...one at a time through a loading gate. I was told that the department went to the S&W top break after an officer was killled in the line of duty while trying to reload the M&H in a firefight. That is a nice piece of history that you have there.

On the Officer Down Memorial Page you can figure out which officer that story is about. Cleveland Division of Police, Ohio, Fallen Officers
BTW that is why cops been carrying two revolvers for generations.

 

[Boulder350]

The serial number for the CPD police gun in the original post is 345,041. The one not marked as a police gun with the Model of 91 barrel is serial number 345,072 and it shipped to E. K. Tryon Co in Philadelphia, PA in July of 1897.

 

[BMur]

Multiple contracts

Thanks for the serial number Mark.

Notice another example close to yours marked SECY C.P.D.
Serial number 343429. This one is assumed Chicago PD but no letter backs that up.

The contracts by this time are very near identical to EXPRESS CONTRACTS. Often multiple gun types and manufacturers being supplied at the same time and when shipping numbers are provided via historical letters they reflect 12,25,50 & 60 guns shipped. Proving a steady supply. A lot by this time are factory stamped C.P.D. On the butts. Historical letters confirm a factory marking. See photos.

Also the earliest contracts for Cleveland PD went to the Distributor G.Worthington in 1891. An Early gun lot stamped with property number CPD No 106. That's not a badge number it's a lot or rack number representing that number in the lot.

Later shipments went to Powell & Clement Cincinnati Ohio that included the Colt 32's that were stamped on the butt exactly the same as the Chicago guns C.P.D. The 32 Colts were supplied up to the late 1920's when the Department shifted to the 38 Specials.

So multiple Distributors and multiple contracts from multiple gun makers overlapping. Exactly the same as the EXPRESS COMPANIES of that time frame. A steady and organized supply of guns are seen from research.

NOTE*** Also many of these CPD GUNS could also have been part of the Cincinnati PD as well. So we could actually be seeing several Distributor markings for as many as 3 or more departments having the same CPD identification stamp.

Murph

 

[bfriz61]

police issue

I have a 38 revolver that was issued to my great uncle on the Philadelphia police force in the 1940's I believe. Was handed down from my father.

 

[raljr1]

I had this one that Mr. Jinks indicated might have been an NYPD gun. The serial number was ground off by machine and restamped.

 

[Boulder350]

Neat guns guys, thanks for sharing.

Reading about the fallen officers in the link SGT ROCK 11B posted makes me remember and appreciate the sacrifices the first responders make every day. They gave all to protect the law abiding. A big thanks to the men and women of the military too, who also do the same thing every day.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

This .38 Safety Hammerless shipped to Massachusetts State Police November 1, 1935. I just got it from fellow SWCA member Mike Smith. It will soon be on display in the MSP Museum as they don't have one. The .22 Outdoorsman was awarded to a Springfield, Mass police officer by Victor Wesson in January 1931. It was the 30th Outdoorsman's shipped. I also have 3 Model Chief Specials and a Model 65 that all went to the Mass State Police.

 

[bcowern]

My o my what nice pistols.

Regards,
bcowern

 

[Dosgatos]

I have a .38 Perfected which I suspect was a police gun, though I have not lettered it. It has what I think is a rack number on the butt.