McGivern's Guns?? LET THE BUYER BEWARE!!

[rct269]

There were two K-22's up for auction ---"well documented" to be Ed Mcgivern's.

It's a fact they were his, but not as we might interpret the term. Come to find out Mr. Ed was what I'll call a S&W dealer---an addition to his day job of showman. Both these guns were, in fact, shipped to him by S&W, and were sure enough his---right up until he either gave them away or (more likely) sold them. Both were part of two shipments of five and four guns respectively (all K-22's) over a period of time.

Now as to whether or not he ever even held them in his hands or not, I'm inclined to believe he (or perhaps his receiving/shipping clerk) most certainly held the boxes in their hands, but the guns??

Ralph Tremaine

 

[glowe]

Ralph, by my understanding, Ed never had much money. He trained police departments and facilitated the sale of many revolvers to various police departments, but certainly they were not shipped to him, but rather the departments because they had the money to pay for them. He had a benefactor who loaned him enough money to keep up his record breaking shooting exhibitions through the 1930s. Walter Groff was that person and he eventually ended up with some of Ed's guns and equipment to help Ed settle those debts.

As any exceptional shooter would tell us, they may take possession of many guns that they may have shot and not liked. Ed was no exception and there is one such account where he had over a dozen 38 M&Ps out to the range to shoot some sort of multiple gun records. A video (below) shows one such event with Ed laying out many revolvers on a blanket. Of course he had no use for almost all of them after such events, so would have sold them. As a matter of fact, he sold or bartered every gun he ever owned, including his record setting guns, before he died. Was he a gun dealer, I say no. Did he purchase lots of guns only to handle them, cycle the action, to find them unacceptable, I say yes most likely.

I own a 38 M&P Target sold to Ed in 1933. It was one of 6 guns purchased by Ed and the documents found stated that Doug Wesson sent the Plant Superintendent, Ed Pomeroy, to personally select these guns for Ed. Ed wanted all of them to be supplied with Ed McGivern gold bead front sights. I assume that most were candidates for Ed, but bet many were given away or sold without much use because they did not measure up. I also have a small database that shows some 66 S&W that were shipped to Ed, most of them in the 1930s

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7b3tl7jtGc[/ame]

UPDATE: The K22 Masterpiece revolvers just sold for $12,000 with holsters.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I'm not interested. Reminds me of Bat Masterson.

Allegedly, long after he retired from being a law officer Masterson would buy old . 45 six-guns and "sell" them to gullible persons as "relics" of his Gunfighting days.

Bat Masterson - Wikipedia

 

[rct269]

Well, my knee-jerk reaction -----first crack out of the box was "What the hell was McGivern doing with .22's?"

The next crack out of the box was "What's he doing with NINE of them---shipped in the later 1940's?"

Then I decided what I decided.

And I'm not always right, but I'm never in doubt!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[HeloMt]

Yes, Ed did sell guns to people he was acquainted with. I was born in Lewistown and my deceased uncle bought a K-22 Outdoorsman from Ed in the late 30's while he was in his teens. My uncle saved money over the summer to buy a handgun and was going to by a High Standard, but his dad chipped in the help him buy the Outdoorsman from Ed. In addition, he got several personal shooting lessons from Ed with the purchase. The Outdoorsman was traded by my uncle in the mid-60's for a model 53, of all things. He said he always regretted trading the Outdoorsman away. I do have my uncle's first edition of " Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" personally signed by Ed to him. It's a pretty cool keepsake of my uncle and my Lewistown roots, but I'd rather have the Outdoorsman!

 

[DARE]

Ralph, check this out.

From Ed McGivern's Book on Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting

Guns Adaptable to Bullet Art:

It is not the author's intention to suggest any particular gun to anyone for this particular purpose. Any .22 caliber repeating rifle, with sights properly adjusted, will answer the purpose.
Any .22 revolver or automatic pistol, with sights adjusted properly, will also answer the purpose. Among these may be mentioned the Smith & Wesson K-22 revolver.

He goes on to mention several other revolvers and automatic pistols.

Might explain why Ed had a few K-22s.

I would love to have a gun associated with Ed McGivern. If it shipped to Ed from S&W that's enough provenance for me.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

On the train ride from Oklahoma to Teddy's inauguration,
Geronimo sold buttons from his coat.
Many Buttons. Replenished from a big bag of buttons.

 

[glowe]

I have serial numbers for a half-dozen K22 Outdoorsman's revolvers, now plus two more sold to Ed in the 1930s. The Morphy Auction K22s are the only Masterpiece revolvers on my list. Ed also bought a 22/32 HFT. Mrs McGivern had a K22 that Ed sent back to the factory and had a 4" target barrel put on it as well.

On the train ride from Oklahoma to Teddy's inauguration,
Geronimo sold buttons from his coat.
Many Buttons. Replenished from a big bag of buttons.

Ed McGivern was not of that ilk!!!

 

[rct269]

Here are the results of some math---more like third grade arithmetic. Any conclusions drawn therefrom are yours, just as mine are mine, and not really subject to any argument one way or another.

Mr. Ed was 72-73 years old at the time of the first shipment of these guns---a little bit older at the time of the second.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mrcvs]

Why did Ed McGivern never have much money? I'm surprised his skills could not have been lucrative (meaning an income) from police department(s) or for compensation as a celebrity showman at various fairs or circuses of the era.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

A lot of those 'Famous' Gun folks probably didn't make that much money.
Remember I have posted about seeing the State Trooper at my Buddy's Gun Store selling Skeeter's ammo.
He said something like We are trying to help Mrs. Skelton raise some money.
My Buddy bought some and I helped carry it into the store.

 

[mikepriwer]

K-22's were McGiverns practice guns. I have the one he put 300,000 rounds through. Jim Fisher and I, with Jim doing the heavy lifting, put on a display at an annual NRA meeting. This K-22 was judged one of the 10 best guns in the entire collectors part of the meeting. I also had, in that display, his primary record-setting gun - 5 shots grouped under a half dollar in 4/10's of a second, and that gun didn't win anything! His book is full of pictures of that gun.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[rednichols]

Why did Ed McGivern never have much money? I'm surprised his skills could not have been lucrative (meaning an income) from police department(s) or for compensation as a celebrity showman at various fairs or circuses of the era.

Ed was a sign painter by trade. The already mentioned Ed Groff was his benefactor as being a well-off exec at Electrolux and a student of Ed's. A collector sent me many images of his collection and paperwork showing he paid off his debts to Groff by sending him his guns. He repurposed gifts he was given, such as this one that originally was to him from Sam Myres.

IMHO it was lead poisoning that led to his and his wife's deaths. Many images of him surrounded by clouds lead dust as he fired outside with his wife by his side. And of course he not only handloaded, but there would have been lead in his paints! Too soon old, too late smart. Yet his shooting was impressive, I have a video of him firing a pair of revolvers as fast as a submachine gun, with the recoil from both holding him up as he leaned into the combined forces.

 

[DWalt]

Then there are hundreds of guns allegedly used by Pancho Villa. Allegedly after poor Pancho was assassinated, his widow had a profitable business of buying up junk guns and selling them at big prices to gullible gringo gun collectors as having been used by Pancho.

Wives were a disposable commodity to Pancho. There were at least 25 women who claimed to have been married to him.

 

[Benton Quest]

When he ordered a gun with a "McGivern Front Sight", did he do so in that fashion, or simply order a "Me Front Sight"?

These are my deep thoughts.

 

[rct269]

Yep! All nine of these guns carried the McGivern bead front sight----and I---ME, who started collecting S&W target guns in 1957, and have been transformed into a sight junkie, and have had 200+ S&W target guns pass through my hands, have NEVER had one so equipped!! I can't say I've never seen one, but having seen one ain't the same as having had one--------or more.

I don't know what it is---I pay my taxes---I open doors for little old ladies---I've never kicked a dog, or tied anything to a cat's tail, but the good Lord has seen fit to punishing me for something along the way----and it's too late now!!

Damn it anyhow!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mrcvs]

Ed was a sign painter by trade. The already mentioned Ed Groff was his benefactor as being a well-off exec at Electrolux and a student of Ed's. A collector sent me many images of his collection and paperwork showing he paid off his debts to Groff by sending him his guns. He repurposed gifts he was given, such as this one that originally was to him from Sam Myres.

IMHO it was lead poisoning that led to his and his wife's deaths. Many images of him surrounded by clouds lead dust as he fired outside with his wife by his side. And of course he not only handloaded, but there would have been lead in his paints! Too soon old, too late smart. Yet his shooting was impressive, I have a video of him firing a pair of revolvers as fast as a submachine gun, with the recoil from both holding him up as he leaned into the combined forces.

He lived to be 83 in the mid to late 1950s. If lead poisoning led to his demise, it couldn't have shaved much off of his lifespan. 83 years old was fairly ancient by 1950s standards.

 

[SmithNut]

K-22's were McGiverns practice guns. I have the one he put 300,000 rounds through. Jim Fisher and I, with Jim doing the heavy lifting, put on a display at an annual NRA meeting. This K-22 was judged one of the 10 best guns in the entire collectors part of the meeting. I also had, in that display, his primary record-setting gun - 5 shots grouped under a half dollar in 4/10's of a second, and that gun didn't win anything! His book is full of pictures of that gun.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Here's a pic of Mike's McGivern revolver that set the record. I was very lucky to have the privilege of photographing it for Mike some years back.

 

[DARE]

I understand the auction is over. Anyone know what the K-22s sold for?

 

[rct269]

$12,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!------------and I'm pretty sure the auction ends tomorrow, the third of three days.

And THAT, in my yet to be confirmed wisdom pretty much confirms that old saying about a sucker being born every minute!!

For openers, just what do you suppose a 72-73 year old man is going to be doing with NINE shiny new K-22's----besides sell them?

I hope it wasn't one of us who turned loose of that much money. It very clearly was my intent to prevent that when I started this thread----never mind the gig I got for discussing an ongoing auction. I knew that was at least possible-----never mind my motivation. A rule is a rule is a rule!!!

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime! Although I certainly hope those who followed in my footsteps don't suffer the same fate!

Ralph Tremaine