Frustrated with sellers on GB

[Greg11H20]

I asked so many questions from the guy on GB ,who is always happy to present a special offering thàt I am banned from his sales. He has lots of pictures and a model history going back to the dark ages, but no specifics.

A renwax salesman

I'm sure I've seen that seller, has the history of the pistol dating all the way back to the first model, and says nothing about the item being sold.

 

[alwslate]

Sounds like you are getting ready to sell off your collection...Let me know if you have any 27-5's, 25-9's, 19-6's, for sale.

No I'm not getting ready to sell off my "collection". I might have fifty actually as I have sold two in the last couple of years and bought five more. But fifty is an insignificant number and I'm sure there are many members on here with a lot more than that. I have been to estate auctions when someone died and had over two hundred assorted handguns. Die with money that will never be spent or guns owned that will never be fired. Does the number matter? Fifty, one hundred?. How many do you own? How many have you bought lately that met your "picky collector" specifications and the seller provided thirty detailed pics? Sellers know that someone who already owns a hundred guns is a lot more likely to buy another one than someone who owns ten and actually thinks he has a lot of guns. From your posts I would never waste my time contacting you even if I wanted to sell one of mine and I don't want to sell any. Hopefully by the time I die I will have more than fifty. Money or guns? Can't take either with you.

 

[steelslaver]

Smith & Wesson revolvers I have bought on Gunbroker over the last few years that had issues, despite having good pictures. In some instances, the seller stood behind it, sometimes not.

1. Model 66-1 P&R’d 6" Barrel NIB. I never asked anything about the mechanics of this gun, just the history of it. It belonged to an elderly gentleman who bought it new and never fired it. This gun was out of time on 2 chambers, meaning when you cycled it single action or double action, the cylinder stop would not click into the cylinder stop notches on the same 2 chambers. I called the seller, he said he had no idea, being a new revolver, he never bothered to check the timing, & he offered a full refund. I declined the return; I had the same problem with my issued Model 67-1 when I was a police officer with the Savannah Police Department in 1990. When I showed it to the Armorer, he handed me a bottle of break-free, told me to saturate the action, and dry fire it a lot, that it would eventually "wear in". That worked & it had the slickest double action pull. I thought I could do the same with this 66-1. That didn’t work, eventually I pulled the side plate off, mic’d the OAL of the hand, found a hand that was a smidge taller in my parts box, and replaced it. It still did not correct the problem. I put the original hand back in, tried the dry firing routine again, and it still didn’t fix it. I ended up selling it to a local ffl.

2. 27-4 4” this gun was low mileage, but the BC gap was .015, and I sent it back to S&W for the BC gap to be corrected. Customer Service rep called me and told me the barrel was bad and they’d have to cut the barrel off, wanted to know if they could put a 6” barrel on it as that’s what they had on hand. Rep said the gun was old and the barrel was shot out, after I pressed him on the issue, he admitted that on the non-pinned barrel guns, it was too difficult to get the barrels off without cracking the frame at the top strap, so they just cut them off. I had him return it to me without the work.

3. Detroit Police 4 inch LNIB, 64-5, this gun looked great, but I neglected to ask for a picture of the ejector / chambers. I got the gun, and every one of the teeth on the ejector were damaged, like someone sat and spun the cylinder and slammed it shut a bunch (Bogarting the cylinder, that’s another technical term)…that one was sold off.

4. Victory Model 5” in .38 S&W (another problem in today’s market, so many sellers list a .38 Special when it’s a .38 S&W and vice versa) not the same cartridge, and not designed to be fired in .38 Special, another gun with a ring/bulge in the barrel. Seller took the gun back.

5. Model 19-3 4” nickel, everything looked good on the revolver except it had a ring in the barrel. Sold that to a local FFL.

Seems like there some consensus in this thread of “suck it up buddy, everyone gets a lemon once in a while”. I won’t do that if I can help it, and I can’t imagine anyone actually does that.

If you have a lemon story, please share.

I have bought way more than 5 S&W revolvers off GB and have not had any real issues. In fact some were far better than I had any reason to hope for. I have also purposely bought quite a few guns with known issues (mostly off this forum)because I can fix them. Anyway on your problem guns

#1 it isn't actually the length of the hand so much as the width. This one needed a bit thicker hand or you could have peened the correct 2 teeth. My point on the length is driven home by the fact I just replaced a 5 shot J frame 38 special cylinder with a 6 shot 32 S&W long cylinder and had it carry up perfectly. That is the second time I have done that. Also replaced a 7 shot 686 cylinder with a 6 shot and had it work also.

#2 I have taken barrels off of both pinned and non pinned S&W. I have even removed barrels from several alloy guns both pinned and non pinned and never cracked a frame yet. It isn't one bit harder or take one bit more torque to take a non pinned off as both require the same amount of torque to stay in place correctly. The pin in actuality does nothing. In fact if you stick the pin in a barrel that doesn't torque up at 12:00 you can move the barrel, by hand, several degrees in both directions with the pin installed. I know this for a fact as I have done it. Any smith worth the name could have removed the 27-4 barrel, took .02777 off the back shoulder, trimmed the face of the barrel shank back a bit, reinstalled the barrel and used the proper tools to get a .004 gap and a new forcing cone. Also frames don't often crack at the top strap, they crack under the barrel above the top of the yoke. I do not believe I have ever heard of an N frame that cracked without a full power round being fired behind a squib and that usually doesn't crack the frame, but does bulge the barrel.

#3 spinning the cylinder while open and closing it will not damage the ratchet as the hand is retracted unless the trigger is pulled when the cylinder is slammed home. It will however seriously peen the snot out of the stop notched and batter the stop as well as the stops window in the frame. Its not the best for the yoke either. The hole for the center pin in recoil shield will eventually get egg shaped too. You can fit a complete new extractor. If the -5 used the new style extractor with the odd arm ends that is an especially easy fix. The older 2 pin extractors were match drilled for the pins and a bit more of a hassle to change out

#4 ya that sucks, and should go back. But, K frame 38 special cylinders are abundant and fitting one to that gun would be easy. BTW a new K frame cylinder can be fit to even a 100 year old K frame with the normal adjustments. The overall shape of the ratchet teeth changed but the surface the hand operates is actually the same. 38 special fixed sight barrels from 2" to 6" are also not hard to find or expensive.

#5 nickle 19 barrels are around. Interestingly most barrels with rings are still accurate. But, it would bug me and I would replace it with one of the length I wanted. Also non pinned barrels work in pinned frames and visa versa. Pinned barrels have a generous groove in them for the pin which is easy to file in a barrel without it.

I probably have 20-30 loose barrels, from 22 to 45, about as many cylinders and trays full of various parts.

 

[Greg11H20]

No I'm not getting ready to sell off my "collection". I might have fifty actually as I have sold two in the last couple of years and bought five more. But fifty is an insignificant number and I'm sure there are many members on here with a lot more than that. I have been to estate auctions when someone died and had over two hundred assorted handguns. Disposable income that will never be spent or guns owned that will never be fired. I could buy fifty more if I wanted to but see no need. How many do you own? How many have you bought lately that met your "picky collector" specifications and the seller provided thirty detailed pics? Sellers know that someone who already owns a hundred guns is a lot more likely to buy another one than someone who owns ten and actually thinks he has a lot of guns. From your posts I would never waste my time contacting you if ii wanted to sell one of mine.

Sounds like you judge a man by the content of his gun safe, rather than his character, thats unfortunate. I shoot everything I own in training and competition. I'm not picky, but I do want a gun thats as advertised / mechanically correct. My post was in frustration over the fact people don't know what they're selling. I hope everything is worn out by the time I'm done. Good luck.

 

[BC38]

All of this is why I would only buy new guns on GB and not bother with buying or selling used guns on there. Too much hassle either way. Too many fees, too much idiocy. It's gotten to be like Ebay, which was a lot of fun back when it was new, now they've both lost their appeal.

Cool! One less competitor for the great old guns offered for sale on GunBroker.

I've bought and sold a few on Gunbroker over the years and have never been burned.

Can't say the same for some of the lesser-known gun auction sites I've gambled on...

Caveat Emptor!

 

[SF VET]

Talk about hagglers with no intention of actually buying the item: I have had a friend for over 40 years, and every time he and I talk, he is close to buying an older Corvette, grumbling that the seller is asking too much. In the four decades I have know him and his insincere search, I have realized he has never had any intention of getting his Corvette. He is an argumentative guy, and just likes to argue with owners of older Corvettes. Since the early '80's, he has been like this, including the last time I spoke with him a year ago. I am sure gun buyers can be like that, just having a hobby of hassling sellers with never any intention of a purchase. I have a few jerk acquaintances. SF VET

 

[Jim Watson]

I had a couple of coworkers who considered only the selling price.
One would travel and burn more gas than he saved on the purchase price, the other waited until a Deal turned up. That one crowed over his savings but I pointed out that yes, I had paid a bit more, but I had been shooting mine for nearly 5 years before he found one cheaper.

 

[Brian Parrish]

I feel your pain Greg.
It's buying a "pig in a poke" but with really, really nice pictures of the pig on the outside of the poke.

 

[Greg11H20]

OP hate to rain on your parade but if I had a S&W revolver listed on GB with a few good pics I would ignore your detailed questions. Why? Many reasons. Taking a bunch of pics to appease one potential buyer is a lot of work. In selling guns along with other things over the years I have learned a couple of things. Buyers act like buyers and tire kickers and pic collectors act like tire kickers and pic collectors. Sellers expect buyers to know what they want and how to appraise it. The more pics they want the less likely they are to buy the gun. They are looking for an excuse not to buy, maybe because they are scared to make a decision. Posing as a discriminating and picky collector gets them a lot of attention what is really what they are looking for. Don't be surprised if your questions get ignored.

I never ask for "bunch of pics", If I ask for a picture it's usually one of the recoil shield and one of the chambers / rachet areas. I realize people are busy.

 

[Greg11H20]

Well RM I have to disagree with you a bit. One good sharp pic of both sides of a S&W revolver is enough for me to decide to buy or pass if the gun is a model I want and the price is fair. I do need to know enough about the serial number to know if it is C&R eligible because I have no desire to have to hassle with going through a gun shop to get a gun anymore.

Well, I'd want a few more pictures of various angles, I got burned on gunbroker, bought what looked like like an absolute mint Colt Model P that had just 2 pictures, of the left and right side of the gun. The pictures showed an absolutely mint condition .44 Russian Model P Colt with 5½-inch barrel and carved ivory grips. Contacted the seller, asked for a few more pics, he advised that the gun looked good all the way around not to worry. So I bid it up, paid big dough for this grail Colt Single Action Army.

Well, when I finally got it in my hands I discovered it would have been mint, that is, except for one small item. Deep, rude scratches, looking like they had been made with a horseshoe nail, scrawled across the entire length of the back of the grip frame, proudly emblazed the owner's name, "FRANCISCO BUSTAMONTE," and ruining what would have otherwise been one of the finest specimens of single-actions in existence. Of course the seller would not accept a return.

I've had similar things happen with SSN's carved on both Smiths & Hi-Powers, etc. Now tell me, how do you combat against that with only a few pictures?

 

[sigp220.45]

Skeeter Skelton fan, eh?

Bustamonte, I Hate You - Shooting Times

 

[Muley Gil]

Well, I'd want a few more pictures of various angles, I got burned on gunbroker, bought what looked like like an absolute mint Colt Model P that had just 2 pictures, of the left and right side of the gun. The pictures showed an absolutely mint condition .44 Russian Model P Colt with 5½-inch barrel and carved ivory grips. Contacted the seller, asked for a few more pics, he advised that the gun looked good all the way around not to worry. So I bid it up, paid big dough for this grail Colt Single Action Army.

Well, when I finally got it in my hands I discovered it would have been mint, that is, except for one small item. Deep, rude scratches, looking like they had been made with a horseshoe nail, scrawled across the entire length of the back of the grip frame, proudly emblazed the owner's name, "FRANCISCO BUSTAMONTE," and ruining what would have otherwise been one of the finest specimens of single-actions in existence. Of course the seller would not accept a return.

I've had similar things happen with SSN's carved on both Smiths & Hi-Powers, etc. Now tell me, how do you combat against that with only a few pictures?

If you own that Colt SAA with the Bustamonte "engraving", then you own one that Skeeter Skelton wrote about or one like it.

UNLESS you plagiarized Old Skeet!

 

[Doug M.]

Hard core collectors need to accept that they are a distinct minority, and that most sellers have little in common with them. The questions a hard core collector will ask make perfect sense to them, but not to most of the sellers. They will just think you are a pain in the butt, asking questions that are well into the range of arcana.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Hard core collectors need to accept that they are a distinct minority, and that most sellers have little in common with them. The questions a hard core collector will ask make perfect sense to them, but not to most of the sellers. They will just think you are a pain in the butt, asking questions that are well into the range of arcana.

Please correct me. Is he not asking for pictures of the wear areas on a gun that maybe has been shot out?

 

[45NUTT]

I hope to find the revolver I'm looking for with bad pictures and incorrectly or poorly described. Less dudes to outbid. If it is a dud, it goes to the next gun show or is returned.

I got a great deal on a S&W 66 because the 2 pics were blurry and the left grip was bubbahed.

 

[StrawHat]

Well, I'd want a few more pictures of various angles, I got burned on gunbroker, bought what looked like like an absolute mint Colt Model P that had just 2 pictures, of the left and right side of the gun. The pictures showed an absolutely mint condition .44 Russian Model P Colt with 5½-inch barrel and carved ivory grips. Contacted the seller, asked for a few more pics, he advised that the gun looked good all the way around not to worry. So I bid it up, paid big dough for this grail Colt Single Action Army.

Well, when I finally got it in my hands I discovered it would have been mint, that is, except for one small item. Deep, rude scratches, looking like they had been made with a horseshoe nail, scrawled across the entire length of the back of the grip frame, proudly emblazed the owner's name, "FRANCISCO BUSTAMONTE," and ruining what would have otherwise been one of the finest specimens of single-actions in existence. Of course the seller would not accept a return.

I've had similar things happen with SSN's carved on both Smiths & Hi-Powers, etc. Now tell me, how do you combat against that with only a few pictures?

So you dragged this out for 70 posts and then zing us! My hat is off to you.

Well played!

Kevin

 

[Model29-26.5]

As a newbie, I have probably been burned without even knowing it!
Blissfully unaware! Lol.
Still happy..
With this said, I Recently picked up a 27–2 6.5 inch With timing that is more crisp than any other revolver I have.
Does this mean I got burned on every other revolver I bought?
Well, the timing on all the revolvers I have fired has been good enough to have not lost a finger or an eye.

 

[Greg11H20]

So you dragged this out for 70 posts and then zing us! My hat is off to you.

Well played!

Kevin

Thank you, Sir!

 

[Doug M.]

Please correct me. Is he not asking for pictures of the wear areas on a gun that maybe has been shot out?

*
I did not say his request is unreasonable within the context, just that the collector population that is common on this forum is going to be a minority of all firearm enthusiasts. I am probably in a different minority here myself. I have a couple of fun plinkers but most of my uses are about fighting.

 

[JH1951]

I ask questions as I feel necessary, but also realize that sellers with multiple listings can easily be overwhelmed and not in the mood to respond. It's pretty simple for me - no response, no bids.