The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight

Several states I believe have laws that state if you are involved in a SD shooting and not indited or convicted you can not be sued civilly....should be the standard nationally...

Also if sued civilly and you win...they have have top pay your attorney fees...

That would end that most suits right there...
 
I don't like the word typical, as I see nothing typical in a gun fight.
what does a typical gun fight look like
what does a typical bad guy look like
whats the typical location of bad things happening
whats the typical day for bad things to happen
whats the typical .....
don't be expecting a typical gun fight , by a typical bad guy, at the typical location on the typical day.. expect the un-typical and train for anything and everything.
 
alwslate said:
Here in Indiana there have been cases that were in the news papers and on the local news channels going back at least 40 years of SD shootings that were ruled legit with NO litigation that resulted. In the last few weeks there have been two incidents reported on the local news channel in which perps were killed by their intended victims with no charges filed and no litigation. If you are scared to death of possible litigation then you might as well forget SD and go ahead and die so your survivors can enjoy your assets.
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Rational people prepare for likely events. At the end of the day, I am indeed willing to risk litigation rather than be killed or have my wife killed - that's why I carry. I have a number of folks who harbor grudges from my former professional activities. YMMV.
 
SuperMan said:
Several states I believe have laws that state if you are involved in a SD shooting and not indited or convicted you can not be sued civilly....should be the standard nationally...

Also if sued civilly and you win...they have have top pay your attorney fees...

That would end that most suits right there...
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Unless, of course, an issue group (ACLU, Firearms Policy Coalition, Everytown law, and a dozen others) uses your case to challenge your state's law - that will eventually end at state or Federal courts of final appeal.

Even if you prevail, you still have to pay your attorney up front. Check on what that will cost.
 
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I read the article. One of first things I noted was the citation of the 2019 NYPD firearm discharge stats. The 2020 report has been out for awhile and in it, 68% of NYPD shootings happened over 5 yards. That might have screwed up the presentation. OBTW, per several statistics classes, 20 is the minimum sample number needed to eliminate random chance as an issue. More is better, 67 cases isn't certainty, but it's a solid sample size.

There's another stat-from the FBI UCR-that's dated, but in the years I was checking the numbers on distances didn't move much. At 3 yards, the good guys lost 90%. Why? Because the bad person knew there was going to be a shooting and the good guy/gal didn't. Action beats reaction.

Now, with that out of the way, your defensive gun use is going to happen where/when it happens if you don't see it coming and avoid it. Having a preconceived notion (fantasy?) of what the attacker(s) are going to look like, do, how many rounds you're going to need, where it's gonna happen or the distance involved is setting yourself up for failure.

Statistics can be a trap. You need to be aware, flexible and adequately prepared. Statistically, you're unlikely to be a crime victim, have to perform a DGU, fire the gun or need more than maybe 3 shots (per attacker). But what if you're one of the outliers? There's some here who, from repeat posts, are minimally prepared. I hope you never discover you're not prepared. A lot of folks have drowned in bodies of water whose average depth would allow walking to shore.

About lawsuits. Unless it's a highly publicized incident (with attention mongering lawyers involved) filing a tort action generally doesn't get any press coverage. The statutory limits on filing those suits are at least 2 years, so the local paper isn't likely to know about it. Unless someone has a source in the clerk of courts office. Or, as biku324 notes above, you become an example for some interest group or someone with ambition.
 
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cracker57 said:
I don't like the word typical, as I see nothing typical in a gun fight.
what does a typical gun fight look like
what does a typical bad guy look like
whats the typical location of bad things happening
whats the typical day for bad things to happen
whats the typical .....
don't be expecting a typical gun fight , by a typical bad guy, at the typical location on the typical day.. expect the un-typical and train for anything and everything.
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Actually, there are answers to all of these questions. It is a very interesting point you raise. This would be a discussion under the subject heading of sociology which deals in generalities, things that are "mostly true". Some people simply do not accept that paradigm at all. We call them NAXALTS, because they always say,
"Not All X Are Like That!"

Sometimes a naxalt has to be excluded completely if he won't be quiet enough to let the class discuss sociology. Don't waste your breath on them.
Don't take offense please. I am a teacher after all, and we don't know each other at all, so I do not know if you are the typical person who would take offense and feel like I am insulting you :-)

There are several types of interpersonal violence with enough commonality that you can actually prepare for them.
Your point has validity in that the people are in error about the types of violence they are discussing. We have been informed by movies and by anecdotes which have misled us. The "typical" :-) description of interpersonal violence is just wrong.

Armed predatory assault by a stranger is a particular type of violence.
The typical predator can be recognized by certain typical behaviors that are so common that you can learn to prepare for it all. You can also recognize the typical locations for this kind of violence which have so much in common that they have been type classed as "transitional spaces".

I think maybe the best way is for both ideas to be understood.
Get ready for what is overwhelmingly probably going to happen! (My advice)
Get ready for nothing to go the way you expect! (Your advice)

I appreciate your contribution here!
BrianD
 
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Brian Parrish said:
I think maybe the best way is for both ideas to be understood.
Get ready for what is overwhelmingly probably going to happen! (My advice)
Get ready for nothing to go the way you expect! (Your advice)

I appreciate your contribution here!
BrianD
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All good points, and I agree your advice along with my advice covers all bases.
I appreciate your contributions here also!
Thanks for not kicking my out of class teach.
 
SuperMan said:
Several states I believe have laws that state if you are involved in a SD shooting and not indited or convicted you can not be sued civilly....should be the standard nationally...

Also if sued civilly and you win...they have have top pay your attorney fees...

That would end that most suits right there...
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I laughed out loud when I read that. Most of the perps who people shoot come from financially challenged families. Good luck getting your attorney's fees out of them, when you win against their stupid suit. They're likely renting with little or no assets and will just skip the state when you put the heat on.

I have a sort of fix. Should a family challenge what LE and the DA determine was a good shoot in a robbery, the family should be charged as accessories after the fact and co-conspirators as they are still trying to steal your money. That should put a stop to specious suits overnight.
 
Execpro said:
Jjrr:
If I came home and found my door unlocked or open, I would not go in!
I would call 911 and report a burglary in progress!
You would find me at the end of my driveway waiting for the Police to arrive. Just Sayen !!
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This happened years ago before cell phones out in very rural area of the county and carrying a gun for self defense was not common. It was a different time, not sure what I would do today in the same situation but I would be armed. Sheriffs dept did arrest the burglars later and recovered some of my guns but not any of the jewelry and other stuff. I still check the house when we return especially if we have been away for extended time.

I just checked the date when 911 was implemented in NC and this incident happened before 911 and after thinking about your comment even being in the driveway if armed intruders were in your house would be a dangerous situation.
 
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WR Moore said:
Now, with that out of the way, your defensive gun use is going to happen where/when it happens if you don't see it coming and avoid it. Having a preconceived notion of what the attacker(s) are going to look like, do, how many rounds you're going to need, where it's gonna happen or the distance involved is setting yourself up for failure.
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Some really good points. I would like to add that obviously a preconceived notion is necessary if you are going to see what you need to see. What I think you are getting at is very important, in that what we conceive about these things is just wrong!

We are so dumb.
We use magic words like "situational awareness" and "OODA Loop".
I see people writing and speaking about situational awareness who have no understanding what to be aware of in what situation. It is as if just knowing the term is all you need.

They talk about OODA loop as if all you need to know is what the acronym stands for! Those who use the term, I mean the ones who seem to know what it means, are not doing a good job of teaching it to others. And the term is so general as to cover virtually anything that can happen that involves two human beings. If you throw acid in his face, you have certainly interfered with his OODA loop. (Practice getting the cap off the acid bottle without burning yourself :-) If you throw down some magician dust and disappear suddenly in a puff of smoke, you have also interfered with his OODA loop. (Make sure your fairy dust is not too far past the expiration date ;-)

You make us think and that helps, I hope!
Best!
BrianD
 
alwslate said:
Disagree all you want. Seven steps to using your gun to defend your life including surrendering you gun to a bad guy? Your grandparents won't be there to read one of the Ten Commandments to you if you kill some one rather than turning the other cheek so the perp that ignored his grandparents can kill you. Ridiculous. If you haven't already developed the mindset of refusing to be a victim then you shouldn't even be carrying a gun.
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Yeah I’m with AL all the way on this one. I don’t care if it’s a gun fight, knife fight or good old fashioned fist fight. State of mind and attitude are EVERYTHING. And you don’t need professional training for that. You either have it or you don’t. I know many cops who absolutely don’t!!!!!!!!
 
Brian Parrish said:
Some really good points. I would like to add that obviously a preconceived notion is necessary if you are going to see what you need to see. What I think you are getting at is very important, in that what we conceive about these things is just wrong!

BrianD
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Thanks, you got the gist of what I was trying to convey. There's a pretty good book-Left of Bang, from Black Irish Entertainment-that tries to teach how to spot cues that should alert you. However, you have to be paying attention to what's going on around you to put it to use. And, there's naturally a bit of a learning curve.

Oddly, there's a lot from industrial safety that can come into play here. "Have a questioning attitude" is a big one.
 
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alwslate said:
Disagree all you want. Seven steps to using your gun to defend your life including surrendering you gun to a bad guy? Your grandparents won't be there to read one of the Ten Commandments to you if you kill some one rather than turning the other cheek so the perp that ignored his grandparents can kill you. Ridiculous. If you haven't already developed the mindset of refusing to be a victim then you shouldn't even be carrying a gun.
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I disagree.

So you do you.
 
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SGT ROCK 11B said:
I disagree.

So you do you.
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Never been in any shootouts. Don't live in Petticoat Junction in a fairy tale existence where violence never occurs. I grew up poor and hungry in a gritty working class city in the late 50s and early 60s where fights, violence and bullying were a way of life. I know what mean people are cause I've seen more than my share of them. You are full of assumptions and have no clue as to what you are talking about. A mind set about refusing to be a victim is something I learned the hard way over a long time. I don't need shooting lessons to be prepared to defend myself if I have to. You are a self styled "expurt" on the subject who thinks you know more about other people than they know about themselves. Now in my "Golden years" my main SD tactic is the above mentioned advice. Home by 6 Pm to 6 Am 7 days a week.
 
But they can......

Bald1 said:
Of course most attacks that require you to draw a gun are close up. Someone cannot rob, assault, rape you etc from 30 yds. I would suggest the only time the distance is substantial is when a person is responding to someone else being assaulted or attacked. The Indiana Mall shootings are an example of that.
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..threaten you with a gun and shoot at you.
 
I have a question.......

Were all of the shootings in the article all about HANDguns or were there long guns involved?

Not as important a question but I wonder how many of the shootings were in a residence, especially home defense situations where the range is going to be limited? In my house 5 yards is probably a good mean, but if I tried hard, I might be able to line up a longer shot (about 7 yards at some really shallow angles. But paying attention to the natural paths for people to follow (walking paths and areas of interest to thieves) 3-5 yards are MUCH more likely.

This reminds me. I need to PRACTICE HD and SD. We've been so distracted the past year that it's been neglected. And I'm old and rusty.
 
I believe distances may vary due to your immediate situation.
 
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