max503
Member
Add more powder - problem solved.
Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter!
- Thread starter Dump1567
- Start date
Federal Gold Medal 148 gr WC & 158 gr LRN
To save people some time.
The title is a bit hyped as is typical in headlines.
The link goes to a "Gun Sam" youtube video.
Gun Sam's testing is relatively consistant for this type of homebrew testing. The basic setup is clear gel with plate of "simulated bone".
In this video he compares;
Federal Gold Medal 148 gr wadcutter to Federal's 158 gr lead round nose using a 4" barrel, and a 2" bbl revolver.
It's foolish to draw any generalized conclusion about wadcutters from this test. At best one can infer that a similarly loaded cartridge would perform similarly given the same test. Anyone who has looked a little bit into the subject of wadcutters will know WC loads such as Buffalo Bore and Underwood offer are quite different than match grade competition loads.
To save people some time.
The title is a bit hyped as is typical in headlines.
The link goes to a "Gun Sam" youtube video.
Gun Sam's testing is relatively consistant for this type of homebrew testing. The basic setup is clear gel with plate of "simulated bone".
In this video he compares;
Federal Gold Medal 148 gr wadcutter to Federal's 158 gr lead round nose using a 4" barrel, and a 2" bbl revolver.
It's foolish to draw any generalized conclusion about wadcutters from this test. At best one can infer that a similarly loaded cartridge would perform similarly given the same test. Anyone who has looked a little bit into the subject of wadcutters will know WC loads such as Buffalo Bore and Underwood offer are quite different than match grade competition loads.
I carry 135 Speer Gold Dot 38+P in my Snubs. The only reason is Massad Ayoob stated in an article that The NYPD were impressed the way it stopped bad guys from 2” and 4” revolvers and approved it for backup and off duty carry. I figured that’s street results and better than jello or water tests.
As I have said many times before here, shooting Jell-o is cool but to me means nothing. There are so many factors that can change everything about being shot by a projectile. Body mass, bone density, clothing, angle, projectile type, velocity, diameter, location of projectile strike, ambient temperature, ...................
Modern ammo, even wadcutters, will work under the right circumstances. Control what you can! Practice and use good ammo. The rest is up to fate.
I recall reading about an off duty officer getting into a shooting. He was shopping at an electronics store with his wife. A gunman came in and grabbed his estranged girlfriend and dragged her outside to his car. The officer got his off duty 5 shot revolver from his wife's purse, 38 S&W if I recall correctly, and went after the guy. He confronted him in the parking lot. After using his 5 shots to little affect on the bad guy, the bad guy started shooing the officer. Seriously wounded, he had to beg the bad guy for his life. The officer survived and I don't recall what happened to the bad guy but, there are several lessons here.
If you carry a 5 shot revolver, carry it yourself with extra ammo. Know your limitations and strengths of not only your abilities but what you use/carry.
Would I carry a wadcutter off duty, no. Am I telling others that they shouldn't, again no. Carry what you want, make sure you have practiced with what you carry, both the gun and the ammo, and know when to be a good witness and when you should actively participate in stopping what is going on.
The only guarantee is that we don't get out of this life alive.
Just sayin
Modern ammo, even wadcutters, will work under the right circumstances. Control what you can! Practice and use good ammo. The rest is up to fate.
I recall reading about an off duty officer getting into a shooting. He was shopping at an electronics store with his wife. A gunman came in and grabbed his estranged girlfriend and dragged her outside to his car. The officer got his off duty 5 shot revolver from his wife's purse, 38 S&W if I recall correctly, and went after the guy. He confronted him in the parking lot. After using his 5 shots to little affect on the bad guy, the bad guy started shooing the officer. Seriously wounded, he had to beg the bad guy for his life. The officer survived and I don't recall what happened to the bad guy but, there are several lessons here.
If you carry a 5 shot revolver, carry it yourself with extra ammo. Know your limitations and strengths of not only your abilities but what you use/carry.
Would I carry a wadcutter off duty, no. Am I telling others that they shouldn't, again no. Carry what you want, make sure you have practiced with what you carry, both the gun and the ammo, and know when to be a good witness and when you should actively participate in stopping what is going on.
The only guarantee is that we don't get out of this life alive.
Just sayin
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
At precisely 10.5 meters above sea level at high tide, at an ambient temperature of no more than 18 Celsius and no less than 34 Fahrenheit, with relative humidity of precisely 41%, barometric pressure being steady for the previous 16 hours or more, using testing equipment endorsed and certified by Eagle Scout Group 428 no more than one hour following a good wholesome breakfast, all participants being healthy and fit adult females capable of holding their breaths for a minimum of 55 seconds.
If we're gonna run tests we need to run those tests consistently and accurately.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
But we were discussing humans, homo sapiens, not the highly mutated homo walmartian variety, invariably observed clinging tightly to Big Gulp cups between forearm and torso while engaged in herd behavior browsing shopping aisles and parking lots.
Hardly a fair comparison.
In that case, I will have to trust my ability to evade the scooter charge . . .
I always wonder why folks come on discussion forms and advocate weak target ammunition for self-defense.
My first Police Department had a box of 50 rounds 148 gr. Full Wadcutter 38 Special in the glove box for reloading in a prolonged gunfight. In my town opossums were a problem. Homeowners would leave a bowl of dog or cat food outside the back door. A opossum would come along and help themselves to free meal. Homeowner would turn fido loose to chase opossum away. Only opossums don’t run fast and have a lot of very sharp teeth meaning fido usually got the bad end of the fight and got chewed up enough for a trip to the vet. So we got regular calls from upset residents to shoot opossums.
One night I got such a call from a trailer park. Resident had trapped a opossum in a large trash can outside his trailer. Sure enough there was a opossum enjoying a trash can of leftovers. Being mobile homes have thin walls I loaded my revolver with 148 gr. Full Wadcutter as I was concerned about my shot bouncing off the ground and into someone’s trailer. So I took careful aim and shot the critter in the head just above it’s eyes for a perfect brain shot. Except the bullet BOUNCED OFF of it’s head. All it did was to make it very angry displaying a mouthful of sharp teeth. The residents were unimpressed making comments about how weak my ammo was. I explained I was trying avoid putting a hole in their trash due to the bullet penetrating clear though the opossums body. I put my second shot in it’s spine between it’s front shoulder blades killing it and penetrating completely through it’s body putting a hole in the trash can.
So the lesson for me was if a opossums skull was hard enough to deflect a target Full Wadcutter at close range it was useless in a gunfight against someone shooting back at me or a person coming at me with a knife.
I’ll be blunt. If a person cannot afford to buy a box of high performance ammunition designed for self-defense then they shouldn’t be carrying a gun. It may be a of small comfort to your wife, family and loved ones if your attacker dies 1/2 hour after you did.
My first Police Department had a box of 50 rounds 148 gr. Full Wadcutter 38 Special in the glove box for reloading in a prolonged gunfight. In my town opossums were a problem. Homeowners would leave a bowl of dog or cat food outside the back door. A opossum would come along and help themselves to free meal. Homeowner would turn fido loose to chase opossum away. Only opossums don’t run fast and have a lot of very sharp teeth meaning fido usually got the bad end of the fight and got chewed up enough for a trip to the vet. So we got regular calls from upset residents to shoot opossums.
One night I got such a call from a trailer park. Resident had trapped a opossum in a large trash can outside his trailer. Sure enough there was a opossum enjoying a trash can of leftovers. Being mobile homes have thin walls I loaded my revolver with 148 gr. Full Wadcutter as I was concerned about my shot bouncing off the ground and into someone’s trailer. So I took careful aim and shot the critter in the head just above it’s eyes for a perfect brain shot. Except the bullet BOUNCED OFF of it’s head. All it did was to make it very angry displaying a mouthful of sharp teeth. The residents were unimpressed making comments about how weak my ammo was. I explained I was trying avoid putting a hole in their trash due to the bullet penetrating clear though the opossums body. I put my second shot in it’s spine between it’s front shoulder blades killing it and penetrating completely through it’s body putting a hole in the trash can.
So the lesson for me was if a opossums skull was hard enough to deflect a target Full Wadcutter at close range it was useless in a gunfight against someone shooting back at me or a person coming at me with a knife.
I’ll be blunt. If a person cannot afford to buy a box of high performance ammunition designed for self-defense then they shouldn’t be carrying a gun. It may be a of small comfort to your wife, family and loved ones if your attacker dies 1/2 hour after you did.
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The 158 gr. RNL bullet was called a’”Widow Maker” by LEO’s due to it’s weak stopping power back in the day Police and Sheriff Officers had to carry it.
The 158 gr. LSWC “FBI or CHICAGO LOAD” was a big step up in stopping power. In fact it still is a good choice especially in short barrel revolvers.
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One or two are manageable, but a herd can be overwhelming.
Edit: never mind.
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DR505
US Veteran
As stated above, people aren't made of gelatin. I was involved in a case where an attempted murder/home invasion robbery victim took 6 wadcutters in his left pectoral muscle and still managed to chase away the assailants with a baseball bat. He testified in court.
hkcavalier
US Veteran
fatcat3
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Really? Guess they should just roll over and beg or die instead of doing their best to protect themselves.Although I have a variety of technically advanced expanding .38 rounds in my stash, somehow I just haven't accepted that they will perform as advertised when it counts. In my mind, placement is king, followed closely by penetration, and then expansion. For this reason I also have a small pile of Buffalo Bore and Underwood wadcutters that clock in between 950 and 1000 fps when leaving my 3" barreled guns. I feel fairly confident that at a minimum they would leave at least a 3/8" channel through whatever organic entity I find necessary to shoot, no matter what they may be wearing.
RoiVin
Member
In 2017 Lucky Gunner Labs tested a 38 different .38 special and .357 magnum loads for self-defense.
Included was the Winchester 148gr wadcutter, which did pretty well in this test - meeting the 'ideal' penetration range but of course no expansion.
Here is a link to the test
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
Included was the Winchester 148gr wadcutter, which did pretty well in this test - meeting the 'ideal' penetration range but of course no expansion.
Here is a link to the test
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
You gotta split 'em and get behind as they advance . . .
Lead bullets of any kind in a 38sp for me are only a range fun or practice ammo . Not carry ammo . I have some 125gr +P old Remmington and some newer Winchester ranger 125gr +p for 38 carry if a snubby is ever needed for carry !
Velocity for both even at advertised +p is really a mild load .
Velocity for both even at advertised +p is really a mild load .
"The rest is up to FIGHT!" sez I.
It is very important that we keep reminding our friends, brothers and sisters, that equipment does not solve problems.
Thank you for your reminder IAM Rand.
It is so typical of us to assume that what happened to the off-duty cop had something to do with his equipment. I would want to interview him of course to be sure.
I hate to second guess him. I have no right to do that.
The good guy does not always win.
I would warn anybody who will listen, that Hollywood gun myths are baked into our psyche.
A gunfight is more fight than gun!
I always appreciate your contribution here.
Regards!
BrianD
I'm going to concentrate on ballistic physics here. I'm not going to get into testing methodology other than to say that one or two shot tests are irrelevant. 20 shots-through actual clothing-with the same results means something.
Penetration is dependent upon 2 factors: bullet integrity (for a given weight) and velocity. If the bullet holds together, how deep it goes depends upon velocity-assuming it doesn't expand.
Some here are in favor of ammo that's clearly going to exit the aggressor's body. Your lack of intent to injure others should, but may not, shield you from charges. Civil suit is another story. Check out the May/June issue of American Handgunner.
Finally, let me paraphrase a sentence from Evan Marshall's contribution to the FBI panel that reviewed the Miami incident. "There ain't no magic bullets."
Penetration is dependent upon 2 factors: bullet integrity (for a given weight) and velocity. If the bullet holds together, how deep it goes depends upon velocity-assuming it doesn't expand.
Some here are in favor of ammo that's clearly going to exit the aggressor's body. Your lack of intent to injure others should, but may not, shield you from charges. Civil suit is another story. Check out the May/June issue of American Handgunner.
Finally, let me paraphrase a sentence from Evan Marshall's contribution to the FBI panel that reviewed the Miami incident. "There ain't no magic bullets."
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