Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter!

[Bastogne71]

My first problem is this is a sample of one. I’d like to see if this is an aberration or is it typical behavior for the wadcutter.
Next by my count, this was shot through 14 layers which I think is excessive even for winter clothing in Montana. Two layers of cotton sweatshirt, two of poly sweatshirt and two layers of snow pants all folded over and duct taped. I’d like to see this test repeated with normal cold climate clothing.

 

[Well Armed]

Some of the poorest shooters I have seen are cops. Helped out doing some teaching when I was stationed on the West Coast. Sad sight at times, a lot just made enough points to qualify by the skin of their teeth. The best on one PD would choke in competition. In practice or in qualification he was hard to beat, but when the pressure was on he would drop about 20 points or so. Often wondered what he would do if the target was shooting back at him.

I agree. I was speaking in general terms as well. Over on GlockTalk, they have an L.E. forum. Many of the L.E. active and retired have stated what I stated about most of their brethren. That said, speaking anything but praise of L.E. seems to not be allowed on this forum, so I'll shut up on the topic.

So no one is triggered, I'll leave by saying that ALL L.E. are excellent shooters. They never miss. They have a 99.9999% hit rating. If L.E. were to miss, damage property, or hit an innocent bystanders, which never ever happens, they would be held accountable just like civilians.

 

[Llance]

There are no magic bullets. True, but there are magic words. We use the magic words after the magic bullets fail.

Magic words are not words used in polite company or conversation.

When your magic bullets fail, and all you have left are magic words, be certain they are not derogatory against your assailant.

Llance

 

[Well Armed]

There are many well-stated opinions and experiences regarding the selection of handgun type and ammo type for self-defense.

The more I read posted comments the more I’m confident I made the right decision to buy a compact/subcompact semi-auto pistol.

With my level experience in self-defense with a firearm, I don’t know that I would be so good and practiced at hitting the C-Zone of an attacker at any distance out to 25 yards with the first shot or 5 more shots?

So…. if law enforcement stats indicate that in officer-involved shootings they miss their target 23% to 53%, having 10 to 15 rounds in my handgun in a defense situation should give me a much better chance of hitting the target.

I received an enlightening PM. I changed my mind. You should do everything law enforcement does.

 

[JWintergreen]

Perhaps the best answer for folks carrying full wadcutters is a loading that is hotter than your typical target wadcutters, but still offers less recoil than a full power .38 load.

Something like the Lost River or Georgia Arms wadcutters would be ideal for someone wanting good performance and low recoil in a small frame .38 Special.

A semi-wadcutter with a sharp shoulder could be a good solution as well.

 

[686-380]

I have subsonic .22 as my primary go-to

Everything is a tradeoff. I prefer my suppressed .22. Like others mention, a projectile entering a organic barrier isn't pleasant.

I have bigger firepower available but this won't give my position away and I don't lose my hearing.

Good luck!!!

 

[BrBa]

I'm thinking 5 inches can ruin someone's day. Measure 5-inches on your torso. Depending on shot location, what major organs are you going to miss?

I prefer to carry the 158gr .38 LRN.

Ballistic gel isn't a 1:1 analog though. 5" penetration in gel might translate to only 2" penetration in a human. If the standard is 12" min. penetration in gel, then 5" isn't even half way there.

 

[Matt_X]

Ballistic gel isn't a 1:1 analog though.

Actually, when properly prepared it is designed to be a generalized 1:1 analog. However the youtuber in question uses a clear gel.


IMO the interesting part of this video is the fact that multiple fabric layers can reduce the penetration of some projectiles. This is not really news, even in WW2 men wore flack jackets, but its an interesting demonstration nonetheless.

 

[AJ]

IMO the interesting part of this video is the fact that multiple fabric layers can reduce the penetration of some projectiles. This is not really news, even in WW2 men wore flack jackets, but its an interesting demonstration nonetheless.

Never saw any ground troops (Marine or Army) wearing a flak jacket in pictures from WW II. Viet Nam is a yes. All the infantry had during WW II was the uniforms on their back. Have seen some pictures of flak gear worn by bomber crews during WW II.

 

[Matt_X]

Never saw any ground troops (Marine or Army) wearing a flak jacket in pictures from WW II. Viet Nam is a yes. All the infantry had during WW II was the uniforms on their back. Have seen some pictures of flak gear worn by bomber crews during WW II.

AFAIK that is correct. Flak jackets were only used by flyers and Navy personnel. Their primary utility was stopping low velocity shrapnel from AA shells and bombs.

As the ones used in WW2 had metal plates inside, those are probably not a fair comparison. From my reading, the first widely issued all fabric (doron-nylon) versions was not until the Korean war. Those are the ones I should have refered to as an earlier example of fabric being used to slow a projectile.

 

[LAH]

+P hardcast WC loads are fine for me. YMMV.

 

[TST]

Never expected to see the debate on .38 SPL carry ammo end up on 158 RNL.

 

[IAM Rand]

I agree. I was speaking in general terms as well. Over on GlockTalk, they have an L.E. forum. Many of the L.E. active and retired have stated what I stated about most of their brethren. That said, speaking anything but praise of L.E. seems to not be allowed on this forum, so I'll shut up on the topic.

So no one is triggered, I'll leave by saying that ALL L.E. are excellent shooters. They never miss. They have a 99.9999% hit rating. If L.E. were to miss, damage property, or hit an innocent bystanders, which never ever happens, they would be held accountable just like civilians.

Originally Posted by AJ View Post
Some of the poorest shooters I have seen are cops. Helped out doing some teaching when I was stationed on the West Coast. Sad sight at times, a lot just made enough points to qualify by the skin of their teeth. The best on one PD would choke in competition. In practice or in qualification he was hard to beat, but when the pressure was on he would drop about 20 points or so. Often wondered what he would do if the target was shooting back at him.

I hate blanket statements like these. They are anecdotal at best. Granted, I have seen some officers that shouldn't be carrying a firearm on duty much less at all. But to paint all law enforcement with such a broad brush does them a great disservice. I have known many officers that are very good shots and I would have no issue with them covering my back. I have also known some officers that were crack shots on the range that I wouldn't want them covering me if my life depended on it. Not sure why Well Armed has such a hatred for law enforcement.

I am glad that the Glock Cops realize that they have issues and know their limitations.

Having gotten that off my chest, I have always thought that hi cap mags have taken the place of accurate shooting. When practicing, stress should be a part of the training. Running 25-50 yards is a good substitute for actual stress. Some agencies do this and others do not. I have carried a wheel gun when I was allowed but, was told that we were all going back to the 9mm so I reluctantly followed. Some agencies just to not have the time or money to do the training that is needed but that doesn't mean that those that are on the streets to protect and serve are bad shots and will do a mag dump at the slightest provocation. It also doesn't mean that they are above the law. I have seen officers that were prosecuted when they were negligent in their discharge of a firearm. I am the first to shake my head when I see an officer shooting indiscriminately but try to reserve my judgement as I was not there going through what they were. I am glad it comes so easy for others that can stand in a glass house and throw rocks.

Also, just because you are a crack shot in competition, that doesn't mean that under the stresses an officer goes through they would act the same. Walking up to a car at 2AM in the morning is a heck of a lot different than waiting for the beep and running a course.

Just sayin

 

[Warren Sear]

Never expected to see the debate on .38 SPL carry ammo end up on 158 RNL.

AKA "The Widow-maker"... for a reason...

 

[bobsguns]

I hate blanket statements like these. They are anecdotal at best. Granted, I have seen some officers that shouldn't be carrying a firearm on duty much less at all. But to paint all law enforcement with such a broad brush does them a great disservice. I have known many officers that are very good shots and I would have no issue with them covering my back. I have also known some officers that were crack shots on the range that I wouldn't want them covering me if my life depended on it. Not sure why Well Armed has such a hatred for law enforcement.

Not quite sure how you took criticism & managed to turn that into hatred?

Metro Nashville PD had a Major who shot himself in the thigh, darn near killed himself. He did lose his leg though. This happened while checking his pistol at the TN State Pen, not under duress.

A Smyrna, TN police Lt shot & killed a fellow officer while demonstrating a "border shift". Problem was, the guns were loaded, not empty. The Lt claimed, "he didn't know they were loaded." He later married the widow of the officer he killed. Draw your own conclusions there, IMO.

I have shot IPSC for decades. 3 Gun & Steel Plate matches as well. By far (and I mean MILES!), the worst shooters were cops.
Why? Because they don't practice, plain & simple.

Does being a bad shot make them a bad cop? Not if he/she does everything else well, IMO.

So, lighten up, Francis. Your blood pressure will thank you for it.

 

[alwslate]

AKA "The Widow-maker"... for a reason...

Yeah the .38 spl 158 gr RN was called "The Widow Maker" Given the fact that for many years it was the std issue ammunition for LEOs it no doubt made widows of many perp's wives over it's long service. And.. was used by many civilians to make widows of family members, home invaders, innocent robbery victims, car jackers and the list goes on. A very lethal ctg actually.

 

[Matt_X]

Two layers of cotton sweatshirt, two of poly sweatshirt and two layers of snow pants all folded over and duct taped. I’d like to see this test repeated with normal cold climate clothing.

Perhaps this would fill your request?
Granted its .25 acp and at 7 yards
Paul Harrell: Shooting through Winter Clothing

and as comparison of a 158 gr LRN, as well as hot (BB) soft HPSWC, and hardcast wadcutter.
Paul Harrell: .38 Spl 158 gr Comparison

Yeah the .38 spl 158 gr RN was called...

It would be interesting if someone has researched the originis of that moniker. Would not be surprising if it came about when some officers percieved that other offerings were supposed to be much better. For example 9mm, .357 Magnum, and .45 ACP all of which for different reasons at the time could be have been thought to be better 'stoppers'. Very similar to the perception that seems to date mostly to the Korean War that .30 carbine was ineffective. Claimed to be so ineffective that it could be stopped by winter clothing. Well, when compared to M2 30-06 it is certainly much weaker. But the facts are its not a weak round for its size and type, and it most certainly will shoot through winter clothing.

 

[GnarlsR2]

By far (and I mean MILES!), the worst shooters were cops.
Why? Because they don't practice, plain & simple.

I'm just curious...

If it is a common state of under-skilled level of law enforcement shooting abilities....?

WHY does law enforcement NOT practice enough to an adequate skill level?

Is this video an example of law enforcement shooting skills and proper ammo?

Four (4) officers were at the scene, 87 total shots fired by police. Only 2 9mm casings found in the perpetrator’s vehicle.

The perp apparently was wounded but lived, as he was charged the day after the incident.

If interested in viewing this... Search in YouTube: "Police Pursuit Ends in Shootout With Armed Driver" – St. Louis MO.

If I were in law enforcement, because of the every day high risks, I would want to practice and practice until I became as "expert" as I possibly could at every aspect of my duties.

 

[lrrifleman]

I'm just curious...

If it is a common state of under-skilled level of law enforcement shooting abilities....?

WHY does law enforcement NOT practice enough to an adequate skill level?

Is this video an example of law enforcement shooting skills and proper ammo?

Four (4) officers were at the scene, 87 total shots fired by police. Only 2 9mm casings found in the perpetrator’s vehicle.

The perp apparently was wounded but lived, as he was charged the day after the incident.

If interested in viewing this... Search in YouTube: "Police Pursuit Ends in Shootout With Armed Driver" – St. Louis MO.

If I were in law enforcement, because of the every day high risks, I would want to practice and practice until I became as "expert" as I possibly could at every aspect of my duties.

I can respect your perspective, however, in many communities, the powers that be are usually anti-gun, and antiproficient police. They think that having proficient marksmen as officers increases a department's liability, especially when people question, "if your cop is so proficient, why didn't he/she just shoot the weapon out of the suspects hands or just wound the suspect."

 

[GnarlsR2]

I can respect your perspective, however, in many communities, the powers that be are usually anti-gun, and antiproficient police. They think that having proficient marksmen as officers increases a department's liability, especially when people question, "if your cop is so proficient, why didn't he/she just shoot the weapon out of the suspects hands or just wound the suspect."

Wow...that's a moronic and shameful excuse for common sense and pure safety.

As an off-duty officer, are they allowed to "practice" on their own?