Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter!

[IAM Rand]

Not quite sure how you took criticism & managed to turn that into hatred? So, lighten up, Francis. Your blood pressure will thank you for it.

Not sure how a thread about using 38 wadcutters ended up into a cop bashing session. My blood pressure is just fine.

You are right, cops don't spend $$ to shoot at paper and steel targets all day long just to enter a competition. I am sure that there would be many officers that would like to practice more if the training budget would allow. If the public wants better shots, cough up the money to make them better shots.

What cops do day in and day out is deal with stress. If you miss a paper or steel target, boo hoo. Walk in the shoes of someone that deals with stress on a daily basis.

Also, if you are trying to make a point, try to be a little less condescending, might go over better............Francis.

 

[IAM Rand]

As an off-duty officer, are they allowed to "practice" on their own?

Not all officers get paid enough to live and spend money on practicing all the time. Go look at what rural LEOs make and tell me how they are able to afford the money to practice all the time.

Isn't it the responsibility of the public to make sure that law enforcement has what they need to be proficient in their jobs? Not only does law enforcement have to practice firearm skills but, driving, how to deal with mentally ill persons, how to protect and process crime scenes............

What some people here don't understand is that when LEOs are training they are getting paid. Then their is the cost of the ammo and targets as well as paying for range time. Then you have to have someone covering the street while they are training. Training is not free. The public is welcome to cough up more money for training.

 

[bobsguns]

I'm just curious...

WHY does law enforcement NOT practice enough to an adequate skill level?

Is this video an example of law enforcement shooting skills and proper ammo?

As to why they don't practice very much, I don't know. Many departments make their officers buy their own ammo due to tight budgets. Officers generally have tight budgets also.

Could be they don't have extra time, maybe they're working a second job often? Could be they're just not "gun guys"? I don't have an intelligent answer for that.

As for the video, I didn't watch it, so I can't comment on it. Sorry.

 

[AJ]

Better for the municipalities to pay for training, than to pay out large settlements after the fact.

Officers that can't or will not put in the effort to become proficient with their duty sidearm, need to be placed into duties where they do not carry a firearm or let go entirely.

Knew some very fine officers that shot great and some that had a few glitches. That is in all walks of life.

 

[bobsguns]

Not sure how a thread about using 38 wadcutters ended up into a cop bashing session.

There's just no reaching you, I guess. None of the comments were geared towards "cop bashing" at all. None.

 

[IAM Rand]

Well armed seems to think that cops can shoot whoever they want without consequences. There are several here who seem to think that cops can't shoot worth a damn because they can't shoot 3 gun or any target competition. This started out as a thread about the 38 wadcutter. Can you explain to me how cops entered into this conversation. What kind of a glass house are you standing in? Just asking.

 

[BSA1]

Really? Guess they should just roll over and beg or die instead of doing their best to protect themselves.

A true dumb criminal story.

A recent Graduate of the State Pen saw a elderly lady walking home with her groceries. He followed into her home with the intent of committing a attack on her. I never learned what the exact sequence of events took place after he entered the house but the police were called and upon their arrival they found him unconscious laying on the kitchen floor with the lady standing over him holding a frying pan in one hand and a large kitchen knife in the other. It was humorous seeing the crook appearing before a Judge the next day with a large black eye and wearing a neck collar.

So this is a reason why relying a gun loaded with weak ammunition is foolish especially when a alternative weapon with much better stopping power is readily available. Just skipping a few trips to the convenience store for a Big Gulp and snacks will save enough money to buy good self-defense ammunition.

 

[hkcavalier]

Yeah there’s been a lot of thread drift here. There’s really two valid arguments that we’ve teased out beyond all the noise.

1. At standard or plus pressures, does the WC shape (given a hard cast or jacketed bullet) give advantages over other shapes?

2. Is a low pressure (target load) WC a good choice for someone who can’t handle a lot of recoil?

 

[AJ]

To most any firearm is better than no firearm at all. There will always be occurrences where weapons of opportunity will prevail when that is the only choice. I always make jokes about my wife smacking me upside the head with a #2 cast iron frying pan when I need it.......

 

[GnarlsR2]

I’ve been active on internet forums since 1999.

I like to learn things and I’m always too curious.

Some of the absolute best, most interesting, and educational threads have contained all the typical discourse, anecdotal opinions, laced with facts, Bravo Sierra, and some personality-thumping.

A discussion about self-defense with a firearm can be way more emotional than a discussion about engine oil and filters.

Conceptual semantics is always at play in textual communications.

Wadcutter ammo apparently has been used in law enforcement, so why would that not be part of a discussion?

Is a wadcutter bullet better for self-defense out of a short-barreled revolver? I don’t know, but I’m learning enough about wadcutters that if the subject comes up on my next range day with my buddies, I will be prepared to sound more knowledgeable than I should be.

Is there any topic of discussion about guns and ammo that will not go beyond wild and crazy?

In Statistics there is common Correlation Deviation, and in topic discussion (internet forums) it would be very difficult to avoid correlation deviation – “thread drift”…. Too many non-normal distribution of variables.

I believe all first responders and our military warriors are underpaid. The agency should require a logical level of skill and provide whatever it takes for those officers to acquire those skills.

It's hard for me to believe that a dedicated professional law enforcement person that carries a weapon would not have the personal time or the money to practice their skills. Would 1 hour at a range once a month be too much?

 

[AJ]

If hard for me to believe that a dedicated professional law enforcement person that carries a weapon would not have the personal time or the money to practice their skills. Would 1 hour at a range once a month be too much?

Yes, you would think that someone that carries a gun for their job or self defense would put some time in on the range regularly. However, they do not. Why you ask? Well lack of time due to second jobs or the lack of inclination to do so. Lack of funds. Some just don't have the desire to be anymore proficient than required to qualify. The agencies that I worked with in Calif. required their officers to qual 10 times a year. They got one month off for their vacation time, and the month of December off due to extra commitments the department had during that time frame. If I remember correctly my son-in-law (a Deputy Sheriff here) said they only qual once a year. We (the members 0f this forum) probably shoot way more than most folks do.

 

[sigp220.45]

What a thread.

I was a firearms instructor as an additional duty for many years. I qualified FBI agents, tribal cops, and some others.

When I retired, I had a gig qualifying FFDOs. Look it up if you don’t know what it means.

I shoot every week at a local indoor range.

If you think the average Joe shoots better than cops, you are nuts.

Last week I shot next to a guy who missed his big ol’ target from 2 yards. 6 feet. I’m not even sure how that is possible. But he did it.

Cops have to be able to at least hit the paper most of the time. Larry from Jiffy Lube? Not so much.

Wadcutters? Sure, it doesn’t matter. There is almost a zero percent chance you’ll ever need to use them.

 

[GnarlsR2]

I am very lucky to belong to a small groups of friends that are retired military, LE, and high level security. These guys are REALLY good shots on paper.

Half of us hit the range once to twice a month.

One range day there were 10 of us. I had fine-tuned sighted in my Lima laser on my P365 Micro. I asked one the guys (retired military) if he would see if my laser was sighted in good enough.

He had never held a P365 and had not shot a pistol with a laser. The paper target was 7 yards. I showed him how to squeeze the laser button with his middle finger on his grip. I explained he only has to look at the laser on the target. He shot a couple slow, and then shot 8 more rounds semi-fast. ALL 10 rounds hit the target center within a 3” circle! I hate it when a guy shoots my pistol better than I can. He turned to me said “Yeah, it’s good enough.”

Oh ****!! ... sorry for the thread drift. No wadcutter was involved.

 

[AJ]

If you think the average Joe shoots better than cops, you are nuts.

Last week I shot next to a guy who missed his big ol’ target from 2 yards. 6 feet. I’m not even sure how that is possible. But he did it.

Cops have to be able to at least hit the paper most of the time. Larry from Jiffy Lube? Not so much.

I don't think anyone has said that "Larry from Jiffy Lube" shoot better than the police. Some police officers leave a bit to be desired with their level of proficiency.

The average individual that uses our local range has many faults when using a firearm. Accuracy being the primary one. Can post pictures of the wooden target carriages shot to bits. holes in the baffles (used to try to keep rounds from exiting the range, holes in the uprights, holes in the roof over the line to keep the sun/rain off, and holes in the benches. Also every once in a while the ricochet marks on the cement floor.

 

[GnarlsR2]

I don't think anyone has said that "Larry from Jiffy Lube" shoot better than the police. Some police officers leave a bit to be desired with their level of proficiency.

The average individual that uses our local range has many faults when using a firearm. Accuracy being the primary one. Can post pictures of the wooden target carriages shot to bits. holes in the baffles (used to try to keep rounds from exiting the range, holes in the uprights, holes in the roof over the line to keep the sun/rain off, and holes in the benches. Also every once in a while the ricochet marks on the cement floor.

OMG AJ...you almost had me in tears!!!

 

[fatcat3]

I

Some agencies just to not have the time or money to do the training that is needed

Cowpies, well sort of. Too much court/lawyer/political mandated sensitivity, how not to beat you wife, MDS sheets, and other assorted "training" B.S. that could be spent on quality training. Say driving, shooting, new law updates. I.E. we had to be "trained on fire extinguishers twice a year. Can't speak for anyone else, but I got it the first time, the 50th was just about more than I could stand.
From my experience looking back some police were very good, some were very scarry, but by Jiminy Cricket we all knew to pull the pin, squeeze the handle and sweep the base.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Cowpies, well sort of. Too much court/lawyer/political mandated sensitivity, how not to beat you wife, MDS sheets, and other assorted "training" B.S. that could be spent on quality training. Say driving, shooting, new law updates. I.E. we had to be "trained on fire extinguishers twice a year. Can't speak for anyone else, but I got it the first time, the 50th was just about more than I could stand.
From my experience looking back some police were very good, some were very scarry, but by Jiminy Cricket we all knew to pull the pin, squeeze the handle and sweep the base.

This was what I wanted to say, but was not able to so succinctly. Thanks.
The cops in dense population centers are the ones who are most likely to need to shoot well, but they sadly are under the constraints of political correctness.

 

[BrBa]

Actually, when properly prepared it is designed to be a generalized 1:1 analog. However the youtuber in question uses a clear gel.

Organic ballistic gel is calibrated to a specific density which is close to the density of human tissue, in order to allow for a continuous data set that is suitable for comparison. However, as we know the human body is not comprised of homogenous tissue as we have bones, muscles, organs, etc. It shouldn't be considered as a 1:1 analog, but they have learned from experience that a certain penetration in calibrated gel translates to good performance in humans.

Chris Laack at Federal talks about this starting at the 2:00 mark. Excellent video by the way: https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y?si=2qdLohgeipsd_ivC

 

[kbm6893]

You've not been to Wal-Mart in the last 10 years & seen all the sweat hogs riding those scooters? Their fat alone is a good 5 inches. Compound that with a heavy winter coat & a perp hopped-up on lord knows what, *I* don't want to wish for better ammo, IMO.

My opinion is, we're not in the 1950s anymore. B&W tv's are gone, AM-only radios are gone, skinny women are gone. Modern times & guns should have modern ammo, IMO.

My .o2

Hey! They have a glandular problem and don’t deserve to be ridiculed! . Throwing a stick of celery at them might be a better alternative.

 

[fatcat3]

Hey! They have a glandular problem and don’t deserve to be ridiculed! . Throwing a stick of celery at them might be a better alternative.

What are you trying to do scare them to death, celery, that's cruel and unusual. Throw em a cheese burger and let em stroke out. Not that my fat tail should be throwing stones.