Safe ammo for new Model 10 No Lock

[BoulderTroll]

Hey all, I'm looking closely at these new 4" barrel Model 10 Classic No Locks, that look like a blued Victory model, and I'm wondering about ammo selection. I've never owned a 38 Special before, just plenty of 357 magnums. I hear that these newer revolvers should be tougher than their WWII and earlier counterparts, and they of course say "+P" on the barrel.

I prefer shooting hotter loads out of all my guns. I buy exclusively NATO or +P for my 9mm's, and I'm wondering if a steady diet of +P ammo would be hard on the new Model 10's. On the one hand, 38 +P seems to have very tame pressures, but on the other, there seems to be a huge variety of what people consider "+P" in 38 Special. For example, Speer Gold Dot 125 grain says their +P is around 950 fps, where Underwood says theirs is 1200 in the same grain weight. I bought some Underwood 140 grain copper rounds that claim 1000 fps. I know that Underwood are known for running hot in most loadings, but if I fed a Model 10 a bunch of 125 grain Underwood at 1200 fps, would that be too much of a stress, or is 38 just a mild cartridge to the point that it would be totally fine?

Sorry for the noob questions, I just know very little about 38 Special.

 

[STCM(SW)]

Are you looking for a defense or target load?

 

[murphydog]

A modern S & W steel K frame .38 Special will handle all the factory +P ammunition you and your wallet can stand.

 

[BoulderTroll]

Are you looking for a defense or target load?

Sorry, I should have clarified, defense, although I try to keep them one and the same. I don’t shoot a lot anymore, and I try to only buy high quality ammo, even if it means less to practice with.

 

[BoulderTroll]

A modern S & W steel K frame .38 Special will handle all the factory +P ammunition you and your wallet can stand.

Thank you! This is exactly what I was hoping to hear.

 

[stansdds]

S&W 38 Special revolvers with steel or stainless steel frame and cylinder with a model number stamped into the frame's crane recess are safe with 38 Special +P ammo.

 

[BoulderTroll]

S&W 38 Special revolvers with steel or stainless steel frame and cylinder with a model number stamped into the frame's crane recess are safe with 38 Special +P ammo.

I think I chose a poor word when I said, "safe". I know they're rated to what they say in the manual. My question was whether a steady diet of +P would cause needlessly fast wear, as it does in some pistols, and it sounds like that's not the case with 38 +P, which doesn't surprise me, given the incredibly low chamber pressure in the cartridge.

 

[bobsguns]

Modern ammo has to adhere to SAAMI specs in order to call themselves +P, or +P+ for that matter.

I seriously doubt a .38spl 125gr @ 950f/p/s is going to even be in the same universe as a +P loading, IMO.

When you get time, catch up on your knowledge: Just a moment...

 

[BoulderTroll]

Modern ammo has to adhere to SAAMI specs in order to call themselves +P, or +P+ for that matter.

Not to nitpick, but there is no such thing as SAAMI spec for +P+.

I seriously doubt a .38spl 125gr @ 950f/p/s is going to even be in the same universe as a +P loading, IMO.

That was my opinion too, and yet, we're wrong:

This is the 125 grain Speer Gold Dot +P from Luckygunner (Their standard 125 grain Gold Dot is 864 fps) :

And here it is from Targetsportsusa:

Speer Gold Dot LE Duty 38 Special Ammunition 125 Grain +P Jacketed Hollow Point - 53720

I appreciate the link to SAAMI, but I'm incredibly familiar with it...I've loaded several different cartridges over the years. It's 38 Special I'm unfamiliar with.

 

[murphydog]

I would put the stress of using a 125 gr .38 Special at about 900 fps as probably less stress than the standard service load of 158 gr at 850 fps. I’ve used the former load even in alloy J frames and it seemed pretty tame.

 

[bobsguns]

Not to nitpick, but there is no such thing as SAAMI spec for +P+.

That was my opinion too, and yet, we're wrong:

Well, *I* don't reload, but I know a thing or three.....

All I can surmise on the +P rating is they're using a fast burning powder & thus the pressure curve/peak is in the +P levels?

If that's not the case, I fail to see how an 925f/p/s load is +P. Explain it to me like I'm a liberal...............

 

[BoulderTroll]

Well, *I* don't reload, but I know a thing or three.....

All I can surmise on the +P rating is they're using a fast burning powder & thus the pressure curve/peak is in the +P levels?

If that's not the case, I fail to see how an 925f/p/s load is +P. Explain it to me like I'm a liberal...............

You're preaching to the choir. I'm as confused as you are. I almost think it's more a marketing gimmick on Speer's part. Since their "standard" 125 load is 864 fps, they can sell their "powerful" 945 fps ammo as +P... Just a wild guess on my part.

 

[BoulderTroll]

Well, *I* don't reload, but I know a thing or three.....

All I can surmise on the +P rating is they're using a fast burning powder & thus the pressure curve/peak is in the +P levels?

If that's not the case, I fail to see how an 925f/p/s load is +P. Explain it to me like I'm a liberal...............

Back with an update!!

OK, so I did some more research, and here's what I found:

Underwood labels their 125 grain, 1250 fps ammo as "+P", but it's really not even close. According to SAAMI specs, +P for a 38 Special is max 20,000psi, and the hot Underwood loads are approximately 28,500psi. How they can get away with labeling them "+P" is beyond me.

And I saw that even Federal's 129 grain Hydra Shok +P is only 950 fps. So a 125-129 grain bullet moving at 950 fps seems to be the industry standard for 38 special +P, and is within SAAMI spec. Buffalo Boar and Underwood throw all that out the window. The caveat, is that most people feel that 38 Special, especially in modern firearms, is horribly neutered by SAAMI, in the same way that SAAMI completely ruin cartridges like 6.5x55, 9x19, and 8x57. They intentionally make loads that will often be used in older firearms incredibly weak. So yes, Underwood is way hotter than a true +P, but no, it will not blow up the gun. Even 9mm has a higher chamber pressure. Norma loads their "standard pressure" 158 grains to 968 fps and doesn't even call it a +P.

This thread was where I got some excellent info, from someone's fairly extensive testing with Underwood:
Chronographed - Underwood 38 Spl +P “Keith” 158 gr SWC

 

[stansdds]

I think I chose a poor word when I said, "safe". I know they're rated to what they say in the manual. My question was whether a steady diet of +P would cause needlessly fast wear, as it does in some pistols, and it sounds like that's not the case with 38 +P, which doesn't surprise me, given the incredibly low chamber pressure in the cartridge.

When it comes to accelerating wear, I expect standard pressure 38 Special will put more wear on the revolver than match wadcutter target loads and +P will wear the revolver faster than standard pressure. But given the strength of S&W's steel and heat treatment process since the 1950's, you would have to shoot a whole lot of +P ammo to induce significant wear, probably more rounds than you will ever want to shoot.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Makes one (at least THIS ONE) wonder if the only real difference now-a-days between "modern" S&W steel framed 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers is...

The holes in the cylinders?

Well, and the price$!

Cheers!

P.S. You STILL can't fit 357 Magnum brass in 38 Special cylinders, though...

 

[pharmer]

I’d imagine .38-44 loads (158 gr @1,100 fps) would wear your gun out faster. I don’t know if it would be dangerous as it is pretty close to current .357 mag factory loadings. $.02. Joe

 

[flintsghost]

There's an article in the BLUE PRESS that I received yesterday that talks about K frame Model 19's and mentions wear. Hackathorn makes the point that the gun was designed for 38's for normal shooting and .357's for carry and defense. When one tries to use the hotter ammo all the time wear is increased. I think the same can be said for regular vs +P. When my agency traded in our 66's, I bought mine. My brother at that time was assigned to Military Intelligence in a european embassy and I loaned it to him to carry full time. He was shooting european ammo all the time for his 4 year tour. When the 66 came home it rattled like a box of nuts and bolts and was literally in need of a total rebuild. European ammo is much hotter than US versions. I think if you use +P all the time in a model 10, you will net the same result.

 

[usm1rifle]

Any factory 38 Special will be safe in a model 10.

 

[Rust E. Badge]

You could make a wiser decision than shooting +P ammo in all of your guns. A firearm bring able to safely fire higher-pressure ammunition doesn't mean that it should be fired exclusively, and will result in unnecessary stress to the arm. Also, what "people" say is just that, "what people say". If I were you, I would follow manufacture recommendations for ammo and gun. I am unwilling to risk my firearms to forum hearsay and opinions. Good shooting to you, sir.

 

[CW3RDL]

Hey all, I'm looking closely at these new 4" barrel Model 10 Classic No Locks, that look like a blued Victory model, and I'm wondering about ammo selection. I've never owned a 38 Special before, just plenty of 357 magnums. I hear that these newer revolvers should be tougher than their WWII and earlier counterparts, and they of course say "+P" on the barrel.

I prefer shooting hotter loads out of all my guns. I buy exclusively NATO or +P for my 9mm's, and I'm wondering if a steady diet of +P ammo would be hard on the new Model 10's. On the one hand, 38 +P seems to have very tame pressures, but on the other, there seems to be a huge variety of what people consider "+P" in 38 Special. For example, Speer Gold Dot 125 grain says their +P is around 950 fps, where Underwood says theirs is 1200 in the same grain weight. I bought some Underwood 140 grain copper rounds that claim 1000 fps. I know that Underwood are known for running hot in most loadings, but if I fed a Model 10 a bunch of 125 grain Underwood at 1200 fps, would that be too much of a stress, or is 38 just a mild cartridge to the point that it would be totally fine?

Sorry for the noob questions, I just know very little about 38 Special.

Any factory 38 Special will be safe in a model 10. Of course, none will “blow up” a modern K frame. All Remington, Federal. Winchester, Hornady, etc., +P’s are safe to shoot in large numbers in K frame S&Ws. In fact NYPD did a test on S&W Model 12s (airweight) in the 1970s. At 4000 rounds of factory +Ps, timing and lockup were still well within safe limits. But, of course, more pressure and recoil mean more wear even on an N Frame .38. I carry six of the, now vintage, Underwood .38 Spl. 125 grain Gold Dots in my Model 64 4.” My speed loaders have Remington 125 grain Golden Saber .38s in them. They are from a “hot” lot from Remington and chronograph at an average of 1025 fps. I’ve burned through a couple thousand standard pressure and hundreds of plus p Zero factory reloads over the last 35 years The piece is as tight as it was in 1990 when I bought it from McCain’s Uniform Supply in Birmingham, AL, the local S&W LE distributor. Though I have almost a case of Treasury 110 grain (+P+), I don’t shoot many as Secret Service determined in the late 70’s, that they were causing forcing cone cracks with their 21/2” Model 19 .357 Combat Magnums….after a couple thousand rounds. The CA Hwy Patrol discovered the same with ((+P+) 110 grain loads in the Model 67 and eventually with the heavier Model 68 (Model 66 chambered only for .38 Spl.)